The Pursuit of Justice | with author and spiritual director Tina Webb

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In this three-part series, Tina Webb and I are talking about parenting, social justice, and understanding your story. She is a mom of SIX kids, so Tina has some incredible wisdom and insight to pass along. 

Tina has been a homeschool mama for twenty years and she loves it! Besides that full-time job, she’s been an associate pastor, a worship ministry director, and director of a church prayer ministry. She is a certified Apprentice Facilitator in Classic Trauma Healing through the American Bible Society and she and her husband, Doug, were licensed and ordained for ministry in 2004.

As you listen to this episode go download Tina’s free e-book and her 3-day devotional.

Tina has written two other books you will also want to add to your collection:

Culture Changers: Understand the Roots of Brokenness and Help Heal Your Family and Community

Justice Reframed: How the Cross Confronts our Pursuit of Justice 

Transcript

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SPEAKER_02 0:00

No matter what our experience, whether it's one of racism or prejudice or discrimination because we're women, whether there's trauma because of a childhood experience, God wants justice because he cares. That has to be front and center. And because he cares, we do have to pursue him first in terms of our relationships and true reconciliation. We have to exude the care of God for the other person. I care about you, you care about me, and the cross makes that possible.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

Hi, my name is Amy Wicks, and I help you navigate the overwhelm and frustration of motherhood through faith, Enneagram, and simple plans. As a faith-based Enneagram coach, I champion you to love your mothering style because you are the mom your kids need, even when you don't feel like it. I'm a mountain mama who somehow ended up on a cul-de-sac in the Midwest, overwhelmed and frustrated by motherhood. But the Lord didn't let me stay there. He helped me turn the challenges of motherhood into a wholehearted decision to get intentional with my faith, my self-awareness, and my family. Each episode of this podcast provides perspective through story, wholehearted purpose, and simple plan so you can discover how to love your mothering style and be confident that you are the mom your kids need. Think of this podcast as your on-the-go mom pal and friend who can't help but talk about Jesus and the Enneagram. So get to that pile of laundry, or hit the treadmill, or load up the kids in the car for that grocery run. Get ready to be encouraged and empowered while you listen. This is the Simply Wholehearted Podcast. Hey friend, I'm back this week with the third conversation of a three-part miniseries with my friend and mentor, Tina Webb. Last week on episode 196, we focused on the topic of being a culture changer, how to understand your story, the value of it, and what it looks like to pursue spiritual, emotional, and generational healing. And today we're going to dive into Tina's perspective and wisdom about what it looks like to pursue racial justice. Not just as a believer, but as a woman who is black, married to a black man, and is raising black boys. I know you're going to walk away from this conversation interested in reading her book and also appreciating her fresh biblical insight on this topic. Now, in case you haven't met Tina yet and you haven't listened to the last two episodes, let me introduce you. Tina, well, she has been a lot of things and has worn a lot of hats. She's been a homeschool mama for 20 years. She's also been an associate pastor, a worship ministry director, a director of a church prayer ministry, and she is certified in classic trauma healing through the American Bible Society. And also, you'll be able to tell in her pastoral spiritual director tone that she also happens to be licensed and ordained for ministry, and she has been since 2004, along with her husband, Doug. Well, as you can tell, I'm not exaggerating about the goodness of what she has to offer. So I'm going to get right to her conversation. Now, as you listen, I highly recommend that you go download Tina's free ebook and also get her three-day devotional. She's written the three books that we've been talking about over these mini-series that I know you're going to want to add to your collection. So if you click on the links, you can learn more about the free ebook and then also the books that she has for sale. So you can learn more from her wisdom, get to know Tina, and maybe even jump into one of her online small groups specifically for moms. Okay, let's dive right in. Tina, I am sad because this represents the last of this series, but this will not be the last time that we're talking and we're sharing. I I love um just the wisdom that I'm gleaning here in this time together. And um, I just so appreciate you coming back and being willing to talk and tackle the subject of justice.

SPEAKER_02 4:35

Thanks. It's been so great having conversation with you, Amy.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

That's really great. Okay, so I want to know maybe the catalyst. Um, what exactly compelled you to write the book and with your son here, Justice Reframed?

SPEAKER_02 4:51

Sure. It was the first week of June 2020, and I had seven different friends, all white, call me to ask me how I was doing. That was the week where there were so many protests and marches and violence breaking out. My son was having the same request of his friends, different people calling to check on us to see how we were doing, but also to ask our perspectives.

SPEAKER_03 5:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:15

So we stood in the middle of the dining room and we kind of were comparing notes and we're like, let's just write it out.

unknown 5:21

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 5:22

Let's just write out how our faith has informed our perspective and is helping us through this very, very difficult season and very uh that is raising a lot of complex questions. So we wrote the book.

SPEAKER_00 5:35

I love it. I think it's so great. I'm so glad you did. I would just note too, because I ordered the book off of Amazon, came in, you know, less than two days or something like that. So great. Love that, love the Amazon. Um, it's digestible. You can read it maybe even in one sitting. If you have little kids, you know, I don't know, leave it in the bathroom or something like that and sneak 15 minutes in every once in a while, whatever you can do. Um, you know, one of the pieces that I actually would love for you to reiterate because you spoke about it in our last conversation that we were focusing on culture changers. Um, but maybe speak to the identity piece again, because I might have some friends who are starting with this conversation, and I think that is the launching step, um, the core piece of this conversation in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_02 6:24

Sure. We always taught our children uh from the littlest of ages that God loved them and who they were to God. That was very important for us because we were as African Americans, we knew that they would come, good, there was going to come a time when they were going to be judged by the color of their skin. That is just the reality. Both my husband and I have situations in our lives where we've dealt with racism. My husband, more than myself, because he is a black man who grew up in an inner city. I grew up in the suburbs. So our experiences are different, but the reality is the same. There are times that we are judged by the color of our skin. However, as people of faith, we knew that that needed to be, and that is our primary identity. When we get to heaven, I don't know that God's gonna care what color we are. He's just gonna be glad that we're there. And so that is that is the um, that is the core, is who we are to God, our identity in Christ.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

Now, have you ever thought, and this is kind of switching it? I mean, did you think that you would write a book with your son? That's kind of cool.

SPEAKER_02 7:35

It is so cool. This is my oldest son, and he's just fantastic. He was actually a criminal justice major in college. He's brilliant, he's a great writer and very gifted thinker. And so to get his thoughts was amazing. And of course, I'm like, this is the one I remember changing his diapers, and we're writing a book together, and I'm learning from him. He's had so much great stuff that he shared in the book.

SPEAKER_00 8:03

Yeah, because his experience takes a little bit from you and your husband, but then his own unique of almost 30 years and what it looks like to be a young man, a black man in his late 20s, navigating this in his unique station of life.

SPEAKER_02 8:22

Absolutely. And that's one of the things we do talk about in the first chapter, and it is a quick read, it's about six or seven chapters. Um, but we we look at the world from where we where we sit. And so he was homeschooled all of his life, K through 12. Um, and he was awesome, you know, graduated early. Um, he's just a very smart young man. And and so, yes, his lens, his faith, everything that has informed him, um, his experiences in college, his relationship with the Lord, um, every voice needs to be heard. And we had a unique perspective from from others. I told, I remember telling one black, one white friend who asked me that first week of June, and I made sure they said, I said to them, I am giving you Tina's perspective. I'm not giving you the black perspective. I can't do that. I can give you my perspective. And so Christopher also offers a very unique but wonderful perspective.

SPEAKER_00 9:26

Yeah, okay, so elaborate on that a little bit because I think there is something to distinguish here. You called it the black perspective and Tina's perspective. Help us understand that a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 9:38

Sure. Well, you know, we what informs us, it's our environment, the way we were raised, where we went to school, and certainly our faith. Hopefully, our faith is number one. And I think there's been a disservice to any African American. I don't like generalities ever. I try not to use them. And, you know, to say that, you know, there's one black perspective of a situation is doing every individual a disservice. It's like saying that there's one white perspective. That's just silly. And so even to, you know, for so uh Christopher and I, my family, our faith informs us first. Our faith helped us through those trials. It was horrible. And my I've had a son terrified of policemen. But again, we have to ground them in the word of God and inform them. And so again, it's it's not a one perspective. It's we all have different perspectives based on our life story and our experience.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

Well, it would seem lent wisdom lends itself to then to understand these conversations that we need to have is it's the plural. It's not just one conversation, it's not just one narrative, it's not just one person representing a community. Because just as I sit in a position of like, I know for me, I get frustrated where I feel like because of the color of my skin, I am represented one way. And it feels so maddening to go, wait a minute, this goes way deeper. I don't think anything like them, you know, and to to have us all up together just does such a disservice to the creation of God and to us as individuals.

SPEAKER_02 11:20

It really does. And, you know, there there are those major narratives going on, but you know, the truth is there are people of color in this country whose ancestors were not slaves in this country, okay? Just like there are white people in this country whose ancestors didn't get here until maybe 1910 or 1920. And so we can't group everyone together and say it's their fault or it's their fault or I'm a victim. That's just not fair. I think the better conversation is ethnic, regional, national history from even other regions in the world and how they are maybe affecting our present. But again, it's some of those major narratives that are being um heard and adhered to a bit too much.

SPEAKER_00 12:11

Yeah, I had a really good friend back. We were in an internship, and she was actually um from the Dominican. And so she would get all in a tizzy anytime someone referred to her as African American because she was like, No, I am not. I am Dominican. And, you know, and so that was her, I was like, that was the first time as an 18-year-old, 19-year-old going, oh yeah, well, that's not fair. I mean, we we could be talking about Asian Americans and, you know, just so many different varieties and go going even like talking about Hispanic and Asian, like that is grouping so many different varieties in one term that can't begin to express the differences and the uniqueness and the unique journey and story that each every everybody has.

SPEAKER_02 13:00

Yes, the unique um, you know, journey and story, and certainly the descendants of slaves in this nation have a specific and unique story. And I believe we have a unique redemptive story. I don't think the story is over, the book is not closed. God is still writing the story, and I believe it's one of redemption and true freedom in Him. And but I love how you, you know, just shared just the people that you know of from different places. We have to listen to everyone's voice.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

Maybe you could kind of tie in the last conversation, culture changers, and then something you hinted at in this conversation, and that was some of the people who are part of this conversation, and maybe those who uh have have greater grievances are actually those who are descendants of those who were enslaved in this country wrongly, and maybe even comparing to those who did the enslaving.

SPEAKER_02 14:00

Yes, well, you know, certainly there's the uh present relational issue, but there's a spiritual issue here going on too. Um, the Bible is very clear in Ephesians chapter 11. And I keep that in the back of my mind, and we teach our children to do the same, and this is what I mean. When they come in contact with someone of another skin color who is um not acting Christ-like, and they might not even be a Christian, we want our children to remember that they wrestle not against flesh and blood. We want our children to remember that this ignorant person um has their own story, and maybe it's one where that stereotype, that ignorance was inherited. Um, but we need for them to also recognize the spiritual reality of the world that we were born into. We were born into a war zone. I always tell them that.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

And that lessens the sting a little bit. There might still be a sting, but it lessens it a little bit because it puts it in perspective. This is a spiritual war.

SPEAKER_00 15:11

Yeah, for us to be able to understand maybe, you know, the biases that people are coming from is going, okay, yes, our enemy is ultimately is the enemy, um, the enemy of our souls. And it's not just people here, but maybe also as we begin to understand that maybe there's there's more here than just this current event that is is playing on emotions, and it's more about their culture and their history.

SPEAKER_02 15:40

Yeah, one of the things that I do bring up a little bit in this book, which focuses in the heart of justice, but also on culture changers, is the fact that um everyone has a story, and um, and so I might I have a friend whose ancestors were slave owners. She carries her own guilt, her own scarlet letter.

SPEAKER_00 16:02

I imagine.

SPEAKER_02 16:04

And that needs to be heard. She it's not her fault. She didn't ask to be born into that bloodline, but she was. I can't blame her. And she should not blame herself. She there is no place for guilt um there. Now she can have compassion on the descendants of slaves, but she can intercede certainly and pray for full restoration, whatever that looks like. But um to be blamed for what her forefathers did would just be um destructive for her. I mean, she's a child of God, you know, she has her redemptive story, and um so we have to understand that everybody has brokenness, and um everyone has their backstory that they didn't ask for, but we have to reconcile, and that reconcilation comes through the cross and only the cross.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

This is really good. I know that there is a lot in your book that is like we talked about, it's like six or seven chapters, and there's a lot that we can read and glean from because I think in order to have a conversation that actually need to be having one, it comes from the lens of faith and who our identity who is in Christ, um, and a biblical perspective. So for us, as we um just process some of the things that we've learned today and are learning from you in this series, which it's not enough. I'm like just already, I'm like, no, we are time, no, stop. Um, but I I would love to hear some of the ways that as your your title talks about justice reframed, how do we champion biblical justice? What does it look like for us? So coming from both perspectives, I have friends who are I, you know, I've I definitely we we represent a very multicultural, a multicontinent audience here. I have friends who listen from all over the world and we're coming from, you know, all the places of the world deal with racism on, you know, I mean, like that's a whole nother conversation. Like the way racism is painted here in America is as if we're the only ones who deal with it. It is a it is a systemic issue all over the world because it's uh it's the enemy at play against the identity of who we are in Christ. So before before I get on a soapbox again, speak to um just share with us how we can practically walk out biblical justice.

SPEAKER_02 18:44

Absolutely. And you said that so well. I I love that justice. My son wrote, justice is the byproduct of God's care. No matter where we are in the world, no matter what our skin color is, God cares, and therefore he wants justice, no matter what our experience, whether it's one of racism or uh prejudice or discrimination because we're women, whether there's trauma because of you know a childhood experience, God wants justice because he cares. That has to be front and center. And because he cares, um, we do have to pursue him first uh in terms of our relationships and true reconciliation. We have to exude the care of God for the other person. I care about you, you care about me, and the cross makes that possible.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

Yeah, that's good. I love it. That's so good. I think that's something that we can do. Um, whether we've got a couple babies on our hips or we're launching one into you know their unique place in life and their call and or to marriage or um parenting themselves, like this is where we can start of championing that and and having conversations. And um just thank you, Tina. Thank you for sharing. And I know that um we're gonna keep having the conversation, whether it's here or we're gonna be following you on your podcast. Um, could you give us the name of your podcast again and how we can follow you and all those things that we can keep in touch?

SPEAKER_02 20:22

Sure. My website is TinaWebb.net. And my podcast is um for mom's is the 14-minute mom life pause. It's part of a podcast that my husband and I actually do together and we talk about some of these media topics. It's the digging deep podcast live talk with Doug and Tina.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

And you can find that on Spotify. That's where I subscribed um as well, and planning on um binging on all of that as much as I can. Mom life moments and um getting to know your husband and you guys as a dynamic duo because you both um your shared experience and life experience, ministry experience, parenting experience, there is a lot of richness. So we can go deep.

SPEAKER_02 21:06

Well, great. Amy, this has been so fantastic. Thanks so much for having me and letting me talk to your audience.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

Anytime. I know our conversation today has barely scratched the surface. There is so much to learn and understand what we as believers are to do about social injustice and the healing that is needed. But I'm so grateful to have you listen to this conversation today. You can continue understanding and learning more and continue the conversation by checking out Tina's website so you can get the free ebook and devotional, and also get her books, check out her podcasts, and maybe even jump into one of her online small groups. There is so much that she has to offer there and so much for you to learn from. I hope you'll also take a minute to share these conversations with all your girlfriends because I think there's something for everybody to learn here, whether it's about motherhood, parenting, understanding your story, and most of all, the social issue of today, how we talk about race and how we approach it as believers. Next week, I'm gonna be back with a new conversation with an old friend of the podcast, Mo Isom. Her new book is fully known and it's powerful. Our conversation went really deep, really fast, and of course, as usual, I can't wait to share it with you. And by the way, if you haven't heard, Apple Podcasts is making big changes to their platform. The good news is nothing is changing here at Simply Wholehearted. In fact, I have months of episodes recorded and ready for you. But make sure you follow the Simply Wholehearted podcast so you don't miss a single one. As always, these episodes are my gift to you and it's completely free. Let me know what you do like, what you think, and you can do that by leaving a rating with review. Those reviews and those ratings are really helpful in getting the word out about our amazing guest. Thank you so much. Now remember, friend, you are the mom your kids need. Continue to pursue perspective, purpose, and plans for the whole heart of life you desire.