Burned Out From Religion? | a conversation with Mo Aiken

Today’s conversation is with an old friend of the podcast Mo Isom- she was a guest clear back in October 2018 and today she is back to share about her new book Fully Know, and invitation to true intimacy with God. It’s so fitting that this is her follow-up book to Sex, Jesus and the Conversations the Church Forgot. 

If you know Mo you know this girlfriend goes deep! And she is #enneagram8 bold and vulnerable- she doesn’t mince words. So, just have a heads up that there are a few minutes that you might prefer to listen without little ears hearing terminology that might need some explaining. 

Today Mo going to upack eternity-defining concepts that may have become confusing and how God’s design of relationships, marriage, sex, and family unviels the blueprint for spiritual intimacy. We do some fiery preaching and conversing-  I just loved every minute of this conversation and I know you will too. 

Also, if some of the topics hit you at gut level today, but there is more you would like to talk through, I’d love a chance to meet you on a 15-minute discovery call. The Enneagram is not just a fun table topic, it’s a resource that will provide transformation to your spiritual life and relationships. I’d be delighted to explore how I can partner with you to get free from anxiety, mom-guilt, and the triggers that keep you stuck. 

https://www.wholeheartedenneagrambook.com/

Pre-order Wholehearted Enneagram today!

What if transformation doesn't start with trying harder, but with knowing you're already beloved? In my new book, Wholehearted Enneagram: The Journey from Type to Transformation as God's Beloved, you'll walk alongside nine women, one for each Type, through stories, Scripture, breath prayers, and tree metaphors that reframe what growth re

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SPEAKER_02 1:28

That's the very place he also unveils the mysteries. And he doesn't withhold mysteries from those who are hungrying and thirsting for more. But when we draw into that space, that's where he starts to show us things or to connect the dots or to reveal to us. Don't you see? I was working all for your good, all for my glory, even when it felt pressing.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

Hi, my name is Amy Wicks, and I help you navigate the overwhelm and frustration of motherhood through faith, Enneagram, and simple plans. As a faith-based Enneagram coach, I champion you to love your mothering style because you are the mom your kids need, even when you don't feel like it. Today's conversation is with an old friend and a good friend of the podcast, Mo Isom. She was a guest way back in October 2018. And today she is back to share about her new book, Fully Known, an invitation to true intimacy with God. I think it's so fitting that this is her follow-up book to Sex, Jesus, and the Conversations The Church Forgot. They really segue nicely to one another. And if you happen to know Mo, well then you know this girlfriend. Well, she goes deep. And she is a true Enneagram eight, bold and vulnerable. She does not mince words. So just a little heads up that there are a few minutes that you might prefer to listen to without little ears hearing terminology that might need some explaining. You know what I mean? You know, it's those conversations you're maybe not ready to have yet. Anyway, today Mo is going to unpack eternity-defining concepts that may have become confusing and explain more about how God's design of relationship, marriage, sex, and family unveils the blueprint for spiritual intimacy. We really do some fiery preaching and conversing. I really loved every minute of this conversation, and I know you will too. Also, if some of this topic hits you at a gut level today and you find yourself wanting to talk about it more, I would love a chance to speak with you, to meet with you on a free 15-minute Zoom call. I use the Enneagram not just as a fun table topic or for you making great Instagram memes. I really believe that it's a resource that provides transformation to your spiritual life and your relationships. I really would be delighted to explore with you how I can partner with you to help you get free from anxiety, mom guilt, and the triggers that keep you stuck. All right, let's get right to this conversation with Mo Isom. Well, I am really excited to get to speak to you again and have you on and to just like continue the conversation away from two and a half years ago. Like, can I just say October 2018? It doesn't seem that long ago. And then I'm like, oh my gosh, a lot of life has happened.

SPEAKER_02 4:33

A lot of life has happened since then. Goodness. So that would have been when Sex and Jesus, uh, Sex Jesus and the conversations the church forgot came out. It's such a mouthful. I just um I hashtag Sex and Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 4:45

Yeah, I think that's what I titled our conversation, Sex and Jesus. That was right to the point. Keeps it concise.

SPEAKER_02 4:51

But you know, we've um, my goodness, in that short of time, I had a third little nugget. We're a week and a half away from a fourth little nugget, and a lot of life has happened. It has been very full. Yeah, like is everyone in the haze that did 2020 happen? Like, that's a whole year that I can't track with.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

I'm like, Yes, yes. I'm still trying to reconciling the fact that it is 2021 and what happened last year.

unknown 5:22

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 5:23

I know. Well, I I'm so excited. Congratulations on baby number four. You all make beautiful babies, so keep up the good work. So thank you. I appreciate it. Are you starting to feel a little, you know, as on a mom note? Are you feeling a little in over your head? Are you so ready for this? Do you got this? Kind of where what's the vibe right now? Because a week and a half out is like boom.

SPEAKER_02 5:48

It's real. I feel very much um like on the family front, on the kids front, we so see kids as just a blessing from the Lord. They're so fun, they're so unique and different, and just discovering them, the dynamic is just a learning curve. Everything is life through a fire hose. Um that's a good way to put it. We so enjoy it, but I have felt like this release of Fully Known, I am going to sort of step away from formal publishing and that whole process for a while. Question mark, you know, span of time. Because it really is a lot. I mean, four kids, five and under is enough of a full-time job for anybody. But absolutely. It's been like this dance of learning how we're on mission together as a family, what that looks like season to season, what we, you know, try and are stretched by and then realize we've overcommitted, let's pull back. You know, it's just been a really dynamic few years and a lot of ups and a lot of downs. It's kind of what fully known was even birthed out of. Um but overall, best thing ever in the minutiae learning as we go. And that is really hard sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 7:13

It is so hard. Yeah. I have three kids in three and a half years. So I did not, I didn't not go on to have the fourth, but I feel yeah, the drowning. And yet, obviously, you and your husband have this pull and this call for ministry and to do this. And so, you know, that is a question I get a lot of time. How do you do motherhood and ministry? How does how does that coexist? How does that work, you know, together symbiotically and can it? And like you said, you know, you've had to commit and then maybe pull back. What did 2020 refine for you guys as far as, you know, is that informing that, hey, we're gonna put up things on pause, come baby number four? Just kind of curious because I think we all learn a lot from our forced break.

SPEAKER_02 7:59

If we didn't, then we missed something because it was oh, such a dynamic season where I really, really believe God just pulled every idol down. I mean, he shook just about everything that could be shaken in our lives, and I would imagine in so many others' lives.

SPEAKER_01 8:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 8:19

And it looked so hard and messy, and you know, it stretched our faith, but at the end, we almost felt weird saying, we we aren't sad that this all happened. This was good. This like wrestling, this agitation, this, you know, these hard seasons were really, really good. And it was the kindness of God on the front end, I think our revelation of our need for more structure of the ways we were pushing things forward, maybe in our own strength rather than listening to the Holy Spirit and discerning as we went. Um, I mean, just our going and our doing really sort of that was our 2019 stretch. I think in October of 2019, I spoke 19 times in one month. I mean, it was just it was that I want to give my yes to God, but then I don't know how to actually give a no. So it was like that burnout. It was just burnout. But it was kind of him because on the front end of that, of the whole pandemic and shutdown, we'd already started to hear his voice and take his hints of like, I have a better way for you, a more sustaining way. And you're you're going and you're doing. And I love you, but I want you to be with me and be still and settle in and you know, let your roots run deep. And it just started, we started making those shifts pre-shutdown, even to the church model that we were a part of, um, shifting from really what was a megachurch to really feeling this pull of an intimate house church setting. And what does that look like? All that was kind of on the front end, and we started applying that to our lives, benefiting from these rhythms and these shifts and these changes. And then boom, shutdown happened. And rather than being tossed for another loop, um, we've just felt the kindness of God of like, oh, this is why you were walking us into a new direction. You know, this is why you were calling us to step back and to set these different idols down and to focus our hearts on you and to Sabbath to rest with you. You know, this, because now we don't, we're not really missing a beat. I mean, everything's shutting down, but we're still able to gather, you know, with fellowship. Um so a long-winded answer to say. I love it. It was hard, but it was so holy. And it stretched us in so many ways. I mean, goodness, probably for everyone financially, just what you know to be your structure, what you can depend on. Suddenly everything was shaken, but he really, really exploded our faith. And it was beautiful because that really exploded too. It grew out of our our intimacy with him, that being still, that that process we had already started of, oh, you want us at your heart, you want us at your feet. And that just came to life in 2020 when there was nowhere else you could go, anyways. So it kind of all worked together. It was a it was a sweet season, stretching but sweet.

SPEAKER_00 11:36

I that is so interesting. You're not the first to use that phrase is the kindness of God. And I think that's telling of the posture because, like you mentioned, regardless of the, you know, maybe you didn't lose someone that maybe lost a job, or how you typically, like you said, you were if you were speaking 19 different times, there's a good chance that a lot of your speaking engagements got canceled in 2020. Gone. Yeah, absolutely done. Gone. I know what ones I had as well. It was gone, or just this indefinite, well, we'll see. And just maybe we'll never get back to you. You know, so all of that feeling, that uncertainty, the uncertainty. And it's I think it's profound to be able to call it the kindness of God. But I believe that shakeup, it's true. It's the kindness of Him to expose where we're putting our trust, our security. What are, you know, are we gonna? It's easy to choose not to worry when everything is going okay. But the whole command to choose not to worry when you don't know what is going on, it takes on a whole new level and how you place your trust. Um, that that's just uh that's really beautiful. I love how you articulated that. And that was so kind of the Lord that just the the sit shifts along the way to get you ready. And I think he does do that. I know I I'm experiencing something in my own life where I too that I'm able to, as I'm telling the story where I stand in it right now, I I can testify to the kindness of God that he was preparing on so many levels that never could have seen it for what it is um now and what I'm in the middle of. But I go, oh no, he was he was at work. This is not catching him off guard. And I think that's the thing that you know we come, we have to come away with of like none of this was a surprise to him. So we had it.

SPEAKER_02 13:28

Yeah, yeah. The the truth that his ways are beyond our ways, his thoughts are beyond our thoughts. That even we we even prophesy in part. We see parts of the picture, we can understand, you know, by his word the the arc of what is playing out, you know. But it's still this another layer to me of this invitation to intimately know him, to commune with him, to hear his voice, is that that's the very place he also unveils the mysteries. And he doesn't withhold mysteries from those who are hungering and thirsting for more. But when we draw into that space, that's where he starts to show us things or to connect the dots or to reveal to us. Don't you see? I was working all for your good, all for my glory, even when it felt pressing, you know. And yeah, I I don't know, I genuinely don't know how people made it through this past year without the Lord.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

Amen. It boggles my. I have no idea.

SPEAKER_02 14:34

He only made it through because of his consistent whispers, his words, his promises, his our ability to see those come to fruition, even if it was like we're like just go A to Z. And he's like, All right, let's start it. BQ95. And I'm like, no, no, no, that's not why would we do it that way? Why would we linear?

SPEAKER_03 14:56

Yeah, that's not how it's gonna go.

SPEAKER_02 14:58

Um, but man, that that relational spot with him, I don't know how anyone made it through without that. Uh, I it was needed and powerful.

SPEAKER_00 15:09

I agree. I think if we weren't desperate for the Lord, for his presence, for a touch from him. I I'm I'm praying and I have seen fruit of this that has just thrown people into his arms and the arms of Jesus. I know that for um one of my good friends, uh Sarah Hagerty, wrote the book Adore. Um that was her most recent one that came out last year. And it was just that it's calling out the attributes of the Lord, right? Adoration, that that practice of faith. And um yeah, you know, and I think it's it's in moments like those that when we don't have an anchor in this, in this world, that we go, oh yeah, but God is this, and this is what the word of God says he is. And so I can put my faith and my hope in that. But time and time again, it'd be like, well, I don't feel this way and I can't see this, but I know your word says that you are a safe refuge and that you are anchor in the storm and you are a high tower and our source of strength. And and and then it's like, okay, oh yeah, I can do this, but I agree. I don't, I just don't know how people rocked through it. And only time will tell as the shaking, I think really the sifting even continues to happen in some way. Absolutely. The residual because we're not quite over it all, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_02 16:23

No, we're not. We're still we're still in the midst. And I don't know that we'll ever, I don't want us to ever return to what we considered a normal. And I I was talking with a friend just the other day, you know, so much of what we've moved through and what we can really soberly foresee ahead, it's only confirming what the word of God actually says. The darkness is going to continue to rise, but the light will shine that much brighter. Our walk isn't just going to get easier and easier. This world isn't gonna get more and more, you know, supportive of the things of God.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

Of truth, right?

SPEAKER_02 17:02

Right, exactly. It's going to continue to just get muddier, but that can be really terrifying if you're not anchored in the truth that, and I would even go so far as to say, have stored up a log of remembrance of his goodness, his faithfulness, his character that you can look back on and remember, oh, that time was hard, but he did see us through, you know, because the the brokenness is only going to continue to rage. But walking with him, um, it's where we shift from a fear to like a full, assured faith. Not that we won't face challenges, not that we won't face persecution, not that it won't be hard, but that he is with us. And I think when we find that fortitude, because that's an internal knowing. Yes, it is. That's not a let me pump you up each day with a new quote that makes you believe this. That's like an inner knowing. When we know that it won't matter what rages, what comes, what storms are ahead. We will stand on the rock of our salvation. And um I I hope, yeah, as this refinement is happening, those who who are his sheep are are strengthened and not scattered, you know, and scared. Um, because he's really good.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:23

He loves us a lot.

SPEAKER_00 18:24

Yeah, he does. I've been listening to an the audio version of Suffering is never for nothing. And that's uh Elizabeth Elliott. I don't know if you've touched on that one. It's actually a transposed and somewhat edited talk that she did over several days' time later on in her speaking career. And then I know at some point dementia said in. But it's, I mean, the title alone, right? I I think it can ar articulate for what a lot of the last year has been for many people. I know it's very applicable to my life right now, but it is that whole idea that when we wrestle through those places and we allow ourselves to go through the suffering and to walk through it and acknowledge it and partner with the Lord in it, then we can even begin to thank him for it. And I I I see that thread as I just want to like pull on that a little bit of that idea of going, you saying, Well, I hope that we kind of don't go back to normal in some ways in the in back to the idols that had us captive and held us back from intimacy with the Lord and knowing, fully knowing God. And um, but it takes um, it takes walking through that thing, being willing to just grab his outstretched arms in this process to be able to say that. And so I maybe even say that as a disclaimer for those um the those of our friends who are listening to that, and there's fear that strikes their heart when they hear, you know, maybe that idea of maybe things aren't going to go back to normal. And in fact, that as the church, we're gonna see harder times. But the the going like, you don't need to borrow our faith, but to believe that the Lord will give you that faith when you are faced with walking through these hard times and that we can we can speak in faith, going that we have walked through hard times and we've seen the Lord never fail us and that suffering was never for nothing, and that he did work it out for his glory, but also our good in the process.

SPEAKER_02 20:28

Yeah, yeah. I think there's this um almost what we have considered normal, there's this toxic piece to it when it comes to our faith as well, that I'm glad the Lord has shaken and is hopefully people are responding to. But I think for a long time, even just in Christendom in church culture, we have so been this consumeristic body of believers that we go, we show up, we we sit under, and we're just talked to. Um, and this is not diminishing the roles of teachers, of pastors, of shepherds, of prophets, but we we are, you know, in this, we've been in this consumeristic like church culture, almost a celebrity Christian culture of we know the voice of our pastor, of our favorite Christian leader, of that Instagram account you follow that you know posts the stuff. We know those voices better than we know the voice of the Good Shepherd. And for ourselves. And we've gone and we've consumed, and we've almost been in this like if you look at Revelation, it's he refers to hating the Nicolaitans. The Nicolaitan, that word means to conquer the people. And it was the model that we saw over time kind of develop uh of these hierarchical system and these Pharisees and Sadducees ultimately that at the end of the day were conquering, ruling, lording over, and oppressing the people. Well, Jesus came and tore all that down. He rebuked every bit of it. And his whole invitation in the ministry of his life was know me, you, you can know me. You don't have to be the most anointed, you don't have to be the most eloquent speaker, you don't have to be the richest. I want to know you, woman at the well. I want to know you, leper, who I've healed. Like, I want to know you, 12 hodgepodge disciples from every corner of ratchetness. Like, I want you to walk with me, and you will know my voice. And what's interesting is that Jesus came with this gospel message. And yet, if we really look at church history, we kind of just rebuilt the same Nicolaitan structure. And we've we've now in modern Christendom gone to these places, we just sit, we receive, and we go. And I think that the problem is that we are left, whether we realize it or not, this spiritually oppressed people that don't realize hey, every one of us carries an office, gifts, talents. Every one of us can inhabitate the Holy Spirit, can walk and know God and praise God for great teachers and great leaders. Don't Me wrong, but I don't need them to know what my next step is. Right now, in all these chaotic times, it's like everyone's looking for who's the voice telling the truth, like trying to sift through all the opinions and all the politicized stuff, and yeah, who do I believe? And then let me just figure out who that is, and then I'll do that. He is the one that you have to go to, you know, and I pray everyone knows they have direct and immediate access to God. Jesus is our head covering, He is the one whom we can intimately engage with. And we don't have to go through X, Y, or Z to access His heart. We just have to find our way to the hidden place, quiet place, even of our own hearts. Still our thoughts calm our mind enough to receive from him and meet him. And man, the revelation he brings, it changes everything. And you realize okay, it's a beautiful benefit to have the body, don't get me wrong. And I want to glean and gain wisdom and weigh ideas and thoughts. But at the end of the day, I know my maker and I was made to know him. And he's leading me in the way that I should go. And that's just important. It's like important that we get that. Because I think a lot of people, the enemies convinced them they don't get that access, or they're not the ones who could possibly speak into X, Y, or Z. And you are, you really are.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

So I think it's just kind of rambling thoughts of the day. No, it's so good. It's critical, it's crucial, it's invaluable. And I would even just touch on that, you know, where you might hear the the church needs your gifts and your service, and that that is how you can find belonging and that you can find community, or you can and I think people misplace some of the involvement in the physical, the physical need or what they have to offer to a local body, which again, you know, there's value to that, like we all have roles to play, but is it replacing intimacy and conversation with the Lord?

SPEAKER_02 25:44

Yes, yes. That's where we get caught in this doing rather than being, and we think it's the same thing. That's where even this book grew out of was this tension when I was doing all of these good things, traveling, ministry 19 times in October. Some so many would hear that and by the world standards be like, oh, amazing. You know, like, right, super, like, and yet my soul came up for air one day and was like groaned out, God, I feel so far from you. And it's not that my faith was shaken in believing his truth, it's not that I was teaching things that were off. It was just that I, Mo, felt disconnected from my source. What I was doing was in my own strength. It wasn't spirit breathed because I wasn't even spending time with this spirit of God. And um, or I should expand by saying I wasn't responding to the ways he wanted to spend more time doing work in me, that internal, sanctifying, intimate work. And I came across Matthew 7, 21 through 23. He drew it back to my mind. And it's the one that says, you know, not all who say to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do the will of my father. Many will say to me, Did we not perform miracles, cast out demons, prophesy? But to them I will say, Away from me, I never knew you. Depart from me, workers of lawlessness. And it was like it struck me in that moment. Oh, I've always chalked this up to him. This is like to the non-believers, away from me. But these people know him as Lord, and they're actually moving in really mighty works. I haven't cast a demon lately that I'm aware of. And so I was like, comparatively, they even have a better argument than I have. Like, I ministered at a women's conference, like, and yet their argument back is they're doing, right? And his response, this scripture can feel so condemning, but it's actually the greatest invitation. His response is like, but I never knew you. And the word, the root of that word new in the Hebrew is yada, and it's the same version. You know how in different languages there might be eight words, and English like condenses them all down to one, and they mean a lot of different things. But this word, it's the same version used when it speaks of like, and Joseph had not yet known Mary. That's of sexual nature. Yeah. When the man took and knew his wife, these are of sexual nature in these contexts, and so I was like, Lord, I don't know how to reconcile what you're saying. I don't, I don't exactly know what you mean, but yada intimacy is this deep layered oneness, this intimacy that the best way you we can really liken it is to a husband and wife and healthy sexual oneness, intimacy. And as he began to break down the layers of what this physical progression of relationship, of marriage, of intimacy in marriage, how it plays out, how it prophesies the gospel and his covenant of love to us, the intimacy he draws us into. I was mind blown. I was like, it's what the whole book centers around, but I it's not weird, it's not gross, it's not, I think, a struggle that so many of us have is we even hear that word intimacy. And because we've had such broken experiences with it or such wounding experiences, or have missed it in our lives, literally just never been shown or taught healthy, right-natured intimacy. We run from a God who's inviting us to that. But that Matthew 7, 21 through 23, it's an invitation, really. I want to know you. I want you to know me. I want us to be one. And when we can let Him minister to and heal those confusing or broken perspectives we have of that, and actually receive from him that invitation of, hey, you've never seen it once in your life, but I want to show you, I want to teach you, you know, I want to heal where this is confused for you. Oh, it's an invitation to be with him, not just do for him. My husband didn't marry me so that I would be his servant. My husband married me because he loved me and we're better together than we are apart, you know, and this is um the beauty of the fullness of the gospel, this hard, hard, stretching, like transforming love that isn't as concerned with our performance as it is our presence. And our performance is going to be born out of that, like, or I should say the fruit is going to be born out of that intimate, just like a child is conceived out of intimate exchange with a spouse, you know, life will come out of that intimacy, but it's not the performance first, and then we figure out how we can fit in an hour of the time in his presence. It's it's flipped, it's being that compels our doing, not the other way around. We'll burnout the other way around. That's what I did. I keep burnout when it's flipped, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:15

I think it's so profound that you write a book about sex and Jesus and the church, the conversations and they forgot or whatever. I think I missed that last part of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So sex and Jesus. But you just articulated the very reason why Satan has such a heyday with our sexual lives. I mean, the sexual brokenness is incredibly pervasive. I I am, I think I'm amazed more and more. I mean, like, like you were you were preaching to the choir when I read your book. I was like, yes, girl. I mean, I couldn't wait to have you on because, like, yes, there I I've just had so many conversations for decades that centered around these same topics. And here I am again faced with where I feel like I've been a new level of awareness in my life of going, holy cow, I don't think we've even hit the tip of the iceberg of the sexual sin and the sexual brokenness out there. And and the reason why. And it's not sex is the enemy, it's it's the enemy is the enemy, and he knows exactly what he's doing because what you just said, intimacy, that that picture of husband and wife is the picture, not just of Christ and the church, but for us, for us in Christ, of that the closeness that we can have and we can experience.

SPEAKER_02 32:36

Exactly. Exactly. I a friend of mine, Julie Slattery, she has a ministry called authentic intimacy.

SPEAKER_00 32:43

Oh yes, yes, so much wisdom. It's overwhelming. Yes, she's so good.

SPEAKER_02 32:48

So good. But she, I was talking with her the other day, and she was talking about how sex and sexuality are this beautiful physical, prophetic picture we have of intimately engaging with God. And and what she said was if the enemy can mute the metaphor, then he takes significant spiritual ground. And I was like, I'm never gonna forget that sentence. Because that is that's what all of the brokenness, all of the perversion, all of the relativity, all of these things are excellent tools at muting the metaphor, at shifting things away from the right-natured, absolute God design, uh, to the subjective, hey, man, you decide what you believe it is. And all of them are symptomatic responses. All the brokenness we see, it's the symptomatic response, really, of the beauty and the right-natured metaphor being muted. And when it is, and it physically impacts our lives, like we were saying a second ago, it completely confuses us to the beauty of the invitation from God, bride to bride from Christ to the church, but also Abba, Father, Spirit of the Living God, Yeshua, the Messiah, to us individually. And I just think if he can keep our sight cloudy, if he can keep this is the enemy I'm speaking of, not God, if he can keep our our sight cloudy, if he can keep things like relative, if he can keep us confused, his victory is that we we won't even understand the design of our maker for our souls and and his. And um, it was just it's powerful. I wrote a chapter in the book, actually before I ever even talked to Julie about any of this stuff, but it's talking about how the physical forms of sexual brokenness we see really relay to thin our spiritual misunderstandings. And so I use these terms when I was like ministering at different universities, and it would like take the wind out of the room. But really, we can understand it, we get the physical stuff. So I would use terms like, are you living out a masturbatory faith? And they're like, why would you put those words together? But by definition, it's self-serving, it's self-seeking, it's wanting the rush and the thrill and our own timing by our own hand. And that is so much of how many people carry out their faith walk. It's a self-serving, self-seeking. I want the highs of God, I want the feel-good experiences when I want them. We don't want to exercise patience, we don't want to exercise perseverance, we don't want to really know intimacy, we just want the rush. And the problem is just like we can understand the physical, it leaves you barren. There's no spiritual fruit produced from that. You're barren. Same with the next phrase I use of spiritual porn, this onlooking type faith. Let me, what we were talking about earlier, observe, observational. Let me look at other people's intimacy with God and assume that um that's directly mine, you know. Assume because I get the feel-good, the rush, the whatever from seeing the wisdom that person unpacked that I've experienced God. Again, Baron, we haven't. And I went through just a number of different like physical, broken things that we can get in the natural, yep, and applied them to how it actually confuses us to what God desires of us in the spiritual. And that includes shamelessness, this performative faith, that includes adulterous hearts. We want to claim Jesus and then go claim all our other idols too. It includes uh even an impure marriage bed, like we see in scripture, of in the physical, if a if us two spouses aren't honoring one another in that most intimate place, how much does that damage our trust that we can be vulnerable with God and he's not gonna hurt us or leave us or you know any number of things that we can see come out of broken intimacy? So again, yeah, once we start to like see it, how this physical connects to the spiritual, it's just like it's like rapid-fire sight. And he wants to heal that understanding. So we'll draw near to him. Great. Also, if physically in this world people started to get it and marriages looked healthier or walking in singleness looked more pure, you know, whatever it may be. But the ultimate win is when we see it and it compels us into the arms of the father and the spirit. Um, and yeah, it's layered and it's heavy, but it's rich when we'll when we'll take in and self-assess, you know, and explore what our our intimacy has looked like in an honest way.

SPEAKER_00 38:10

So profound. I love how you just call it like it is, give it a name. This is why I love integrating the Enneagram into what I do and the the spiritual directorship that I feel like I sit with people and just kind of as a spiritual director, um, just someone to walk along with them. But it's the awareness piece that you just you you name it in and when we can have language for it, we can then, like you said, we can go, okay. And and we might have to sit with it for a while because it's heavy, it's big, it's ooh, do we really want to associate with that or or recognize that? Oh, that's that's me. Um, but when we do, there's there's freedom that can come afterwards. Because I'm for most of us, if we're walking in the spirit, when we have the awareness and we can finally name it what it is, then we aren't gonna want to continue to participate. We don't want to take part in that anymore. And so we want to do something different and we want to change. And um, I that's just really powerful. I've always really respected that about you of just like, girl, you call it like it is, and and I am all about that. And then um man. And now I'm also looking at the time and going, okay, clearly we could be talking for hours and I'm sorry, I'm so little winded. No, no, I am not complaining. I am loving every minute of this. I don't think I even actually hit on any of the questions that I had planned, but I did want to close at least with this. And um just as, you know, because we did talk about the church and uh maybe the unhealthy ways that we've related to it. 2020 has shaken up how we relate to the church and how we participate. Um, some things for the good, some things maybe uh maybe we're growing complacent and and we're doing it church from our couch out of laziness, not because uh we need to. So, you know, what could you, what would you say to encourage us, just as we navigate our faith in light of feeling discouraged or burned out, uh, and we've taken one way or the other of like where we were striving, but then now we're the couch potato. I know there's there's a healthy middle ground. And I think that you and your husband have gone after this in a really beautiful way. And I just think you would have something to encourage us.

SPEAKER_02 40:27

Yeah, for sure. I think it's really important. One of the primary ways God started to minister to me in this space was recognizing the difference between the church that is an institution or the building or the thing that we've made it versus the ecclesia, which is the the church, the body of Christ. Um and one of the most beautiful things I think 2020 did, even though I know it it came with a lot of layers and a lot of different elements for people, but God shut those buildings right down. I mean, especially towards the beginning. These things that we maybe had even made idols. Oh, yeah, I'm always in church. Well, great, you've gone to a building, but are you the church? Are you carrying his spirit? Is your body the cathedral of the Lord? You know, whatever imagery or wording you want to put around it. And when we begin to understand the difference between the institution versus the invitation to be the body of Christ, um, this ecclesia for for my husband and myself, it was this great revelation of, oh yeah, the most simple premise of the gospel, that we carry his spirit where wherever we go, where two or more are gathered, that we are intended to be a functioning, healthy body. And so we're going to, and that his greatest invitation is intimacy. We're going to fight for that. And that looks like um not forsaking the fellowship, gathering with one another, building one another up, teaching, studying the word, calling one another up and out of sin. But for us, it was a real juxtaposition of like, I think sometimes even in these big church institution models, we also um we don't understand intimacy because that's really places you can facilitate it. Yeah, I love it. So many pros, you know, so many good things. But at the same time, we um were like, you know what, what is what is real intimacy? And is there just as much depth in gathering with 12, you know, 10, 12 people than there would be in going to this big place? And when we started to walk in that direction, we moved to a house church fellowship model. And man, you start to learn that it's not like that's taking the easy way out. That's just deep, it's raw, it's true intimacy where you are seen and where your absence is felt and where your presence is powerful, and where you know you are uncovering layers of one another and really doing life. And for us, at least in this season, um, I can't speak to what it will look like, you know, 10 years down the line, but our focus has been coming away from seeing value as numbers, mass, you know, growth and expansion. The bigger the better. Right, the bigger the better, width, and rather understanding value as depth. And if you're couch potatoing, you're not gonna know depth because you're not really stretched, you know, you're sitting in so true, you're not actually being the church. Um, but also just as guilty are those running and hiding in a large congregation and not having to really be seen and known. So for us, it was this deeper exploration, and I would encourage anyone listening in the deeper exploration of maybe what is the religious mindset I I've been carrying and how is made, what are the good things, the good pieces and parts of that? But what have I also, what am I forgetting or forfeiting that's really quite simple? How am I called to be the church? Who am I to disciple? Who am you gonna know the best place to find a non-believer to share the gospel with the grocery store on a Sunday morning when everyone is piled in? You know, it's like, how Spirit of God, where do you want to take me, use me? Who do I speak to? How do I reach them? And um, man, allowing him to, it's gonna be unique and different for everyone. I can't give a perfect blueprint, your life isn't mine, vice versa. But how am I called to be the ecclesia? How do I contribute to it? How do I not just consume, but how do I bring my strengths and my weaknesses to the table and become more like you in um living as an activated member of your body? And that is gonna roll into the other six days and 23 hours a week than we've allowed it to, thinking the church is just where we go on Sunday, you know. So I don't know if that encourages or punches people in the face, but the reality is maybe a little bit of both. Maybe a little bit of both. That's been such a journey for us. And you know, one of the most beautiful examples, and then again, I know I'm so long-winded, but it it's been watching my head. I love this. We're so different. I'm long-winded. He will give you the most concise number of words to speak something. Um, he is more reserved, he is so deep and full of wisdom and strength. He's patient and he's humble and he's slow to anger and he's quick to listen, and he's really a processor. And those are all beautiful strengths about him. Um but I think in previously seeing church as we did, maybe just as we were sort of grown up to experience, he would admittedly say there are other people who are way better at teaching, way better at speaking, way more eloquent. He would even a lot of the times say, like, Mo your ministry, because you go and talk on the stage. Like, and one day we just hit this place where we were like, that's not how it is supposed to be. God didn't even always use the most eloquent. I mean, goodness, think of think of Moses. He's like as a stutter. And and it was this realization of, hey, you're the leader of our family, of our home. You have gifts and a call in your life. You have a shepherding office on your life because you're loyal, you care for people, want to tend to your people. He's the type that has friendships that they've been friends for like 25 years. And I'm like, yeah, I know, right? He's just and and beginning to see these things and speak them over him. It helped us come out of this thought of like, yeah, somebody better should teach us. And he now shepherds and leads our house church group and teaches weekly, you know, as well as the other men that he calls up and contributes and to watch that growth in him. It's not so much like it was maturity of he didn't know anything and now he does. It was more of just like this unchaining of you thought that was somebody else's role, but you realized when becoming the church, hey, I have the same spirit of God in me. And if he's calling me to this, he'll work through me for this. And watching his confidence, his articulation of things, the unique way he approaches things in thought. It's been so cool. So all that to say, I would encourage each and every person to intimacy with God is going to draw you out of your comfort zone. It's not always feel good. Neither is marriage.

SPEAKER_00 48:40

Heck no. Dynamic, right?

SPEAKER_02 48:43

Motherhood, or I mean, even think of being stretched as a student or whatever season of life you're in. We understand that the stretching and the challenge is good and beneficial for our growth. But we have to remember that as the ecclesia as well. He wants all of us activated. There's enough room for everyone to be activated for the kingdom of God. And I just see this hour, God doing that so powerfully in the body.

SPEAKER_00 49:11

Amen. Oh man, that's so good. And as you said that, that just reminds me, I think those who listen and are inclined to feel like they have to strive to have the seat at the table is to take on the position just as you guys navigated. Oh, wait, I have something that I can offer the body of Christ that doesn't require me to strive for a seat at the table. And and on the flip side, hey, um, come on, you do have a seat at the table. Come join us, like move forward in that. Come grab a chair and pull it up and and and join in the feasting. And so um, that's so good. Uh I have loved every minute of this conversation. And in the back of my mind, I was typing your husband. I'm totally being totally on it. I was like, oh, I think I know what Enneagram typey is. That would be fun.

SPEAKER_01 50:01

What would you guess he is?

SPEAKER_00 50:02

Well, I'm you did the Enneagram. Yeah. So like what did you what did you come out with?

SPEAKER_02 50:09

Okay. So admittedly, I haven't like dug in and studied it in a few years' time. But when we did, I was a strong eight. I'm like, uh maybe people would guess that. Yeah, not a surprise mode, not a surprise. Very predictable eight. The only things that threw me for a loop on the eight front were like the challenge of bearing your emotions and being vulnerable. I'm like, I feel like Christ has brought me through that because that's like my bread and butter. Um, but when he tested, he was a nine, which remind me what that one is.

SPEAKER_00 50:47

That's the peacemaker. Um, that's the peacemaker. But I would maybe say, yeah, I could see him being a nine or a six-wing five, five or five-wing six, because the six is the loyalist. And so I was just hearing a lot of the steady, the more behind the scenes person, which a nine would maybe take as well. Um, those look similar, but yeah, I'm married to a nine who yeah, he has he's in his 40s and has had friends for over 30 years, you know, that kind of thing where it's like, oh yeah, that that must be awesome. I'm grats, I didn't do that. But we can do it from here and on. Well, I'm a seven-wing eight. And so I I happen to love eights. AIDS tend to be some of my best girlfriends, and we just get along like peanut butter and jelly because I let my eight-wing fly and I feel free and good when I'm with eights because I'm like, yeah, go, girl, go. And and they say the thing, but I'm like, it's right there. I just don't know quite how to have the guts to say it. Yeah. So it's good. It's good. No, I love it. Well, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 51:51

I think that's what we would shake out. Maybe we'll have to test again and see if you I think you're pretty close.

SPEAKER_00 51:59

I think you're pretty close, but you're too busy having babies to worry much about the Enneagram in this moment. So in due time. Oh, this is fabulous. I am so excited to share this with all my friends. And just your book, fully known, is available now. It's really continuing the topic of intimacy. We've talked a lot around it. Um, and I know that if you valued this conversation, you're gonna want to get your hands on this book for sure. So thank you, Mo.

SPEAKER_02 52:27

Hi, my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 52:31

Friend, if you have been feeling far from God or if you found yourself caught in dead religion and broken relationships, I pray that this conversation has sparked some fire in your belly. I encourage you to get Mo's book fully known and use it as a resource to help you return to life-giving intimacy with your first love, Jesus. Also, check out her Instagram to see and send congratulations for the newest isom. He's adorable. Next week, I'm taking a break for the Memorial Holiday, but to officially kick off summer, I will be back with an episode with my friend, Andrea Fortenberry. She's host of the Perfectionist Guide to Mothering. I got to be a guest on her podcast just a couple months ago, in which we chatted about perfectionism for every type. We're gonna expand on that topic and dive a little deeper on how to overcome those perfectionism hurdles. By the way, if you haven't heard yet, Apple Podcasts is getting a makeover. The good news is nothing is changing here at Simply Wholehearted. I have months of recorded episodes ready to share, but make sure that you are following Simply Wholehearted Podcasts so you will not miss a one. You'll continue to get them for free, they're my gift to you. But I would love to also hear what you think about the show. And you can do that really easily. Just leave a rating with a review. Really, each one of these really helps me in getting the word out about our amazing guests and these incredible conversations. Thank you so much. Remember, friend, you are the mom your kids need. Continue to pursue perspective, purpose, and plans for the wholehearted life you desire.