The Problem of Lonliness with Enneagram Seven Bonnie Gray

Are you in search of belonging? Truth is, we are all on a journey to find our way out of loneliness. Each of us has created our own unique coping mechanisms, and in my daily conversations both locally and online, so many of us are in desperate need to know our true worth. Bonnie Gray has taken the brave step to share her journey of how God makes the beauty of our brokenness in her new book, Sweet Like Jasmine: Finding Identity in a Culture of Loneliness. (PS Don't miss the pre-order gifts!)

Not only is this conversation for the Enneagram Seven and those they love, but it’s a timely message for all. Bonnie Gray and I will talk about the joy of living as our true selves, the problem of loneliness, and her thoughts on recent Anti-Asian violence in the U.S. 

But before we get started If you are interested in specific episodes about the Enneagram Type Seven check out episode #174 in my Motherhood and Enneagram series and episode #110 the Summer in the Enneagram Series 2019

And if you are loving the Summer in the Enneagram series, you’ll want to join us for the virtual celebration happening on August 23rd- The Wholehearted Enneagram Summit is jam-packed with all your favorite Enneagram teachers to help you go from surviving to thriving in your motherhood, marriage, career, and spiritual life. 

https://www.wholeheartedenneagrambook.com/

Pre-order Wholehearted Enneagram today!

What if transformation doesn't start with trying harder, but with knowing you're already beloved? In my new book, Wholehearted Enneagram: The Journey from Type to Transformation as God's Beloved, you'll walk alongside nine women, one for each Type, through stories, Scripture, breath prayers, and tree metaphors that reframe what growth re

Transcript

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SPEAKER_03 1:28

When I am bogged down by the worries, by my mistakes, by my overthinking. You know, it's like a lot of that happened after I was 27 as I entered into my 30s. And life got more complicated things that I've been running away from, um, I couldn't run away from anymore because I became a mom.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

Hi, my name is Amy Wicks, and I help you navigate the overwhelm and frustration of motherhood through faith, Enneagram, and simple plans. As a faith-based Enneagram coach, I champion you to love your mothering style because you are the mom your kids need, even when you don't feel like it. I'm a mountain mama who somehow ended up on a cul-de-sac in the Midwest, overwhelmed and frustrated by motherhood. But the Lord didn't let me stay there. He helped me turn the challenges of motherhood into a wholehearted decision to get intentional with my faith, my self-awareness, and my family. Each episode of this podcast provides perspective through story, wholehearted purpose, and simple plans so you can discover how to love your mothering style and be confident that you are the mom your kids need. Think of this podcast as your on-the-go mom pal and friend who can't help but talk about Jesus and the Enneagram. So get to that pile of laundry, or hit the treadmill, or load up the kids in the car for that grocery run. Get ready to be encouraged and empowered while you listen. This is the Simply Wholehearted Podcast. Truth is, we are all on a journey to find our way out of loneliness. Each of us has created our own unique coping mechanisms, and in my daily conversations, both local and online, many of us are in desperate need to know our true worth. Bonnie Gray has taken the brave step to share her journey of how God makes beauty of our brokenness in her new book, Sweet Like Jasmine: Finding Identity in a Culture of Loneliness. Not only is this conversation for the Enneagram Sevens and those they love, but it's a timely message for all. Bonnie and I are going to talk about the joy of living as our true selves, the problem of loneliness, and her thoughts on recent anti-Asian violence in the U.S. I can't wait for you to hear this conversation. And before we get started, if you are interested in more episodes about the Enneagram Type 7, check out episode 174 in my Motherhood in Enneagram series and episode 110 of the Summer in the Enneagram series from 2019. If you are loving the Summer in the Enneagram series, you'll want to join us for the virtual celebration happening on August 23rd. The wholehearted Enneagram Summit is jam-packed with all your favorite faith-based Enneagram teachers to help you go from surviving to thriving in your motherhood, marriage, career, and spiritual life. The registration page is live and linked in the show notes. Okay, wait, okay, we need to start recording with such good content. Okay, let's just go. Let's just go. Let's just go. It's recording. We're good. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:58

Oh, we're seeing the show now? Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

I love it, Bonnie.

SPEAKER_02 5:03

Um, okay, you can see it all. I am like such a transparent me.

SPEAKER_03 5:08

What you see is what you get. So like you can put anything and everything on there. And hello, listener. If you're listening now, I am just wish you were on Zoom with us right now. So you can see us and be energized. So I'm a seven. So like seeing you is energizing to me. Are you a seven? Yes. Okay, so yes, look at that. You're like totally energized, right?

SPEAKER_00 5:30

Yeah. That's why I gotta do video. I did one recently. Um, okay, so I love Michael Jr., right? He's a comedian, super funny. And I was so excited to be a guest on a show. But I was totally thrown for a loop when one, I had no prep work, or actually they gave me prep work and then they didn't like it was ended up being all improv. So that was one thing. But then also his assistant, Akila, super sweet. She is a first-time mom now. And uh she was like, Michael doesn't like video, and so we're gonna keep the video off. And I'm like, what? You don't understand. That's how I get energy doing these things. I stand here and I look at people and it's like somehow I come through Zoom. And so it was different. Yeah, for sure. So the whole video thing, it's real. And uh now I want to know a little bit about just because, okay, so we're gonna start off here. I know what I want to talk about because um I love your work. I I just am I it was one of those things when I already followed Bonnie Gray. And then Pamela sends me this email. Bonnie Gray wants to be a guest on your podcast. I was like, yes, of course. Always. Um so that was really exciting. But I know um it's just really interesting because today has been like one of those no good, very bad, awful days. Like just, you know, it started with forgetting an orthodontist appointment at 7 30 and then it just went downhill. And you know, I just had a good cry. So I'm I'm it's a little bit better, but I I cannot promise that I will not cry. Like this is one of those episodes that I have a feeling, a sneaky suspicion. I'll either have to edit the blubber or it'll just be.

SPEAKER_03 7:22

Oh no, that's why I'm here. It's it's in God's plan because I am so comfortable with crying and I feel rewarded and honored. When someone can feel comfortable and safe so that whatever's in your heart can just surface and be present. So I'm very happy to be here at the end of the day to be that soft landing for you. Oh, thank you, Bonnie. Yeah, all right.

SPEAKER_00 7:50

Forget this recording.

SPEAKER_03 7:51

Let's just talk.

SPEAKER_01 7:53

No, just no, this is our show.

SPEAKER_03 7:56

This is our show. You and I talking, you and I sharing our heart. That's like the best.

SPEAKER_00 8:01

It is right. Yeah, it is. I that is why I love coaching, because I in return can offer that space. Um, but I have found that there's been a few times authors like you who have in return offered it to me, and it's it's been a beautiful gift.

SPEAKER_03 8:19

So thank you for being willing. I think that's what we're gonna do today on the show. No, that's what we're gonna do on the show today. I I think that's when it's most powerful.

SPEAKER_00 8:27

Yeah. Well, okay, so that's the one it's most powerful. Yeah, okay. I mean, I normally we would go, okay, let's talk about being a seven, let's talk about your Enneagram journey. We're gonna get there. But um I okay, so we're both similar ages, right? We're living in our fourth decade. I have that right. Am I aging you too fast?

SPEAKER_03 8:49

No, I just turned 50 in December. I mean, I think all of this conversation is good for the podcast. You should put it on there. Yeah, I just turned 50 in December, but I have always had a soul age. My soul age, inner age is forever 27. I love that. It's forever 27.

SPEAKER_00 9:09

I'm kind of, you know, why it's so funny is that I feel the same way. Like, how can I be 41? I'm how did I how did third 45? My five, my fiving.

SPEAKER_02 9:19

Yeah, yeah, I'm forever 27.

SPEAKER_03 9:22

Yeah, and that's kind of like my my sweet spot as a you know enthusiast, uh, number seven. That's like kind of like the apex of like life was great because life is full of full of opportunity, everything's open, I can change, I can choose what I want. There's lots of options. So I'm always returning to that 27-year-old. That 27-year-old is my my kind of my true self in the seven. And so when I am when I am bogged down by the worries, by my mistakes, by my overthinking, you know, it's like a lot of that happened after I was 27 as I entered into my 30s. And life got more complicated things that I've been running away from, um, I couldn't run away from anymore because I became a mom. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 10:21

Yes. Something about entering into motherhood.

SPEAKER_03 10:24

Well, when you become a mom, you can't run away from anything. You can't leave the house, you can't leave the bathroom, you know, without the kids there. Or you can't leave the house without arranging baby care, without um, you can't go see your friends without you know, negotiating with your husband. Hey, I'll do this night if you do that night. It's like everything is so tied down. And it's like that space that was there for you just shrinks a little more each time. And it doesn't mean you're not happy to be at mom. Um, you know, the the whole mom thing is also like a field day for a seven because there's so many possibilities, so many ways of doing things, but yet there's this part of you that's that's not the mom, it's it's the part of you that's the 27. I mean, in our case, we're not a soul age that fuels who we are as a mom. And so I think a lot of people don't understand that, and we're hard on ourselves. Like, well, I should be happy as a mom and like I should serve my family and a lot of shame and guilt because we're sevens. Okay, we want to, you know, we know we're bringing the energy in, we know we need to bring it on, whether it's for our kids or for our spouse, or even but we forget that you know the seven gets fueled, like in my case by the five, you know, input. Yes, you know, in being investigative. And and I for me, I don't connect with the word investigative, it's more like I'm curious. Exactly. I like to be curious, right? I want to learn more, have different experiences, I want all these different things. But when you know, as as a mother you don't have that much space for that. So then you kind of run into what seven's run away from, which is pain. Yeah, there's no escaping anymore, right? No, exactly. Like that disappointment in the morning, it's like I don't even have any time to like process it or you know, get my own space or do what I need to get filled. No, it's like especially when you have one of those days, everything's just packed, packed, packed, and you you don't get the breather breather and things start falling apart, you know, and um plans just start to fail. When plans start to fail, that's when you know, I think us as sevens we're starting to lose the energy and the hope that this day can turn around. Like it's not turning around, right? Okay, I'll hope it's lost. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Oh then it's like spiral.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

It is, and I think for me, and I'm I'm gonna be as transparent as possible, but I'm in a middle, in the middle of something that's not all my story yet to share. But I'm facing such a deep rejection right now. And and it's realizing that that rejection has been there most of my life. But now I'm acknowledging it because now I have some missing pieces. And so today I experienced rejection of a different kind from different people. But it hit me so deeply. Yes, because of the big one, right? And so I'll share that moment. And I think that all of us have been there, all of us have felt that rejection, no matter what personality type you are, no matter um what your family history is, no matter what your story is, there's there's rejection as is part of it. And so um, but I know that you're intimately acquainted with that feeling. And I know that again and again the conversations I'm having with women are about friendship and feeling rejection and desiring that place of belonging and feeling loneliness. Yes. You know, it's I think loneliness is the real epidemic here. Yes, it's that's the real disease that is um hurting people and people are dying on the vine because of it, you know. And so I and I think you know, some people's faith are it's their faith is withering because of the loneliness that they're experiencing. And so I just open that in that transparency, and I know that yeah, you have a lot to say on that.

SPEAKER_03 15:08

Yeah. And I think that um, you know, this book suite like Jasmine is about um finding identity in a culture of loneliness, and that culture is within ourselves, it's our experience every time we experience rejection and hurt. Um, doesn't matter what Enneagram we are. Um, but I think especially for sevens, we it's kind of stacked up because we we we we we run away from it by creating wonderful experiences for ourselves and for others, it's a way to express our joy, but we don't deal with the rejection. So it's stacked up, it's piled up. So you know, when there is someone who kind of even touches it or speaks into it, it's like all of it is being experienced at the same time.

SPEAKER_04 16:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:04

And it's all being surfaced, and it's very painful, it's very painful because I don't feel it very much. You know how sometimes people say, like, if you maybe if you experience rejection more or whatever uh feeling, if you you you can like embrace it, you can get used to it. Okay, well, for someone like me, okay, or somebody that you know it's like us and all Enneagram, but it's like, no, I I don't experience pain. I don't want to step into pain and rejection. I don't want to feel the hurt and yes, I know God loves me, I know my worth, but um what we know in our heads is different from what we experience in our heart. I think there's a lot of um shame in well, I don't want to share this one to anybody because how I'm feeling. Uh I don't want to share the story or uh this interaction I had with this person because I don't want to be judged. This somebody might tell me, oh well, you need to forgive. And you know, they'll launch into forgiveness, and then it's more shame because like our head knowledge, we understand the truth, but living the truth and experiencing it, that's when we need to be able to be there for one another and to share our stories of rejection or hurt or whatever it is. And so that's why I wrote this book because I feel like we talk a lot about you know the gifts of imperfection. We talk a lot about um God doesn't guilt us, uh, we need to free ourselves from shame. Talking about it, the topic is not going to help us experience the comfort and the peace and the joy. It's going to be through sharing our stories.

unknown 17:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:56

So this book was written kind of like the ultimate experiences of what does it mean to be lonely? And in talking about those lonely moments, we share our stories. And here's the beautiful thing. When we share how we feel lonely, guess what? We're suddenly not lonely. It's so true. It's disappearing. So um, the story that you say it's not yours for yours to share right now. Um I think that there will come a time when you'll see that even sharing it while you're in the midst of it is going to be very powerful and healing for yourself and also for the people that are in your life.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

Yeah. And there there has been great power, you know. I think I I'm grateful I have a small circle that I can who who will genuinely pray and who can hear. And I don't know what I would do without them. Like that is such a gift. And I know that everyone, not everyone listening has that. And I think that's something that you and I would champion to find and to have, because we have to have those people that we can tell the whole story. And and that's why, you know, the podcast, you know, part of the mission is to share those broken-hearted moments that led us to that wholehearted decision, whatever that was, in Christ, where he mends and he heals and he brings us to the other side. But we have to we have to be able to acknowledge it. And and that's why too, you know, I think I know you and I just really appreciate the Enneagram because it it it names some of those things that we otherwise are like, okay, I I have this feeling, but I'm not sure what to call it. Or, you know, there seems to be this theme in my life that I, you know, I need help connecting the dots. And sometimes I know for me the Enneagram has certainly played a role in helping me go, yeah. Oh, it was anxiety.

SPEAKER_03 20:15

Anxiety is something, you know, we experience. So, you know, when it says do not be anxious, I think a lot of people read that as a command or a don't do this. But it's really if you think of it in a different voice, which is consistent with our loving savior, you know, he's more encouraging us. He's saying, you don't have to worry. Yes. So we can read it differently. It's a different voice when you really lean into Jesus as a loving savior and someone who identifies the scriptures say that he has been susceptible to the same temptation that we have. He's saying, Well, it's all right, it's okay, even though you feel anxious. You don't need to continue to be anxious. That's right. You don't have to be anxious, you don't need to continue, and I'm here for you. So I think that that verse has been taken a lot out of context. I feel yeah. It's it's you when you take it out of the the character of God and it's a loving voice. And so that's right. We need each other, we need to hear another person say, I understand, I would feel anxious too. And it's okay, we don't have you. It won't, we don't, we won't stay there forever. It's okay that it was a terrible night last night and we couldn't sleep. We're gonna have some of those, but tonight's gonna be better. It's gonna be better. Tell me about it, tell me what happened, and then through that sharing, that talking, then that anxiety gets released, and then we don't continue to stay because it's been released. So a lot of times I think our faith is more like taught as a light switch. Do not be anxious, off, you know, off on, off, on. And that's really that's not at all the the pictures and the figure of speech and the poetic metaphors that God uses. He uses trees, flowers, planting, seasons. It's over time. So if you look at that, do not be anxious, it's not saying do not be anxious right now. It's not stop it. It's we we're not tied to this. It's not our final state.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

Yes, it doesn't define us anymore. Okay, yes, thank you.

SPEAKER_03 22:37

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

Yeah, well, it's it's the it's being able to go. We feel that, but we don't have to be that if we give it to Jesus and if we take it, like you said, as the kind imitation instead of the yeah, it's invitation. Yes, yes, exactly. The harsh command. I would love to know if there is a story in your book that you would love to share today that just I don't know, kind of gives us a little glimpse of of the the theme of the story. Um I I I, you know, again, I followed your writing. You're a beautiful writer, so gifted. And I haven't finished my advanced copy yet. I'm so excited to do that. But um yeah. Yeah, yeah, and just um just to read and learn more about you as a person and your experience. So what would you what would you want to share with us today?

SPEAKER_03 23:38

Well, I think um, you know, for any number on the Enneagram that I'm specifically sharing for, you know, the seven, but actually anyone, because we have all told ourselves um our Enneagram numbers help us understand what was missing from our lives earlier because we kind of we all grow up to try to fill the need of what we didn't have. There are things that we didn't receive that we have to tell ourselves I need to take care of myself, whether that's you know, motivated by the need to um, you know, um have safety, the need for security, uh, the need for love, the need for happiness. I mean, all the different things around the enneagram are all based on motivated by our needs. And that's that's normal, that's healthy, that's human. God created us to have these needs, but as a child, we don't receive them. Um, some families are more broken than others, some are more healthy, but regardless of healthy or broken families, everyone has needs. Um, that's because we're children of God. And so I look at the Enneagram more like helping us understand our story. Now, what I want to share from sweet life Jasmine, that kind of um I felt kind of speaks to the need that when we are young, we each make a vow to ourselves when those needs are not met. So when I was, um I my parents were divorced when I was seven, and um it was not a good divorce. It's not the you know, uncoupling that Gwyneth Palatro talks about, you know, it's like nothing friendly co-parenting. Okay, this is this is bad, okay. These guys are battling it out, they don't like to talk to each other. I'm talking about my mom and my dad. My mother was a mail order bride from Hong Kong, my dad was a bus boy in a noodle shop. It's a very unique situation um where you know they immigrated from Hong Kong. I was born in San Francisco, Chinatown. But, you know, they did not have that loving relationship about falling in love and staying married, okay? So when they were separated, um, I was always, you know, told like, don't listen to your father, you know, don't try to be close to him, don't let him, you know, try to get close to you. And but one day when I was sick, and I was so sick because we grew up with uh very little means. My mother, she was uh 18 years old when she had me. She didn't speak any English, and so we were a family of humble memes, did not grow up in the best neighborhood, and we didn't have health insurance. So when I was sick, you know, usually, you know, you take aspirin and tylenol, whatever it takes, right? You just get through it. But this time I needed to see the doctors, and now as a mom looking back, I knew that I had hand, foot, mouth disease because you know my kids had it when they were little, where you get sores in your throat and you're crushing your mouth.

SPEAKER_00 26:42

Any mama who's had to deal with that, it's it's up there with lice. It's so frustrating.

SPEAKER_03 26:48

Well, it's so painful. The poor kids can't eat, they can't drink water, it's very painful, and so that was me. My my throat was inflamed. And so my mom suddenly, without any you know, um preparation, just drove me to the parking lot where my dad worked. He was a a uh a waiter by that time, and she said, Go ask your dad for some money because we don't have money to see the doctor, go ask him. I said, Well, God, I haven't seen him in a long while. I mean, what would I say to him? She's like, just go. You know, she just like opened the door and said, Don't come back until you get the money. Um, my sister caught whatever I had, so like here I was, I'm the oldest of my family, and I have to go. I don't even know like what I would say. So here I'm walking through the parking lot, I go in through the front door, and um, it's very busy in the Chinese restaurant, and they point me to sit, you know, in the chair and wait for my dad. And my dad was not happy to see me. He's like, What are you doing here? I'm working. And I was like, uh, I I'm sick, you know. I thought it was like, I'm sick, my throat hurts, you know. And I said, I I need some money. He's like, Why did your mother tell you to come get money? I don't have any money. I have no money, no money. And I was like, Oh no, what am I gonna do? Because my mom says I had I can't go back to the car unless I get the money. And I'm sick, and my sister's sick. Right in that moment, I just was just terrified, confused, and heartbroken. And I said, But dad, I can't go back if you don't give me my m give me money, because my mom said I have to see the doctor, and it broke my heart because my dad went into his bill fold back pocket, and guess what? He did have money. He started, you know, taking out the the cash, and I just felt so awful. I didn't even want his money, but I had to take it. And so, walking back to the car, Amy, I said to myself, that little eight-year-old self-girl said, I am never ever gonna ask anybody for anything anymore. I swear I will grow up and I will make sure I will never have to ask anyone for money or anything ever again. I never want to be in this position ever again, and so that's kind of like a little vow, a promise I made to myself. I mean, at the time it was by God's grace what I needed to get through a hard time. You you have to overcome, you have to be strong, right? Right, nobody was there to help me. So, but guess what? That stayed with me, Amy. That sense of like, I can't ask people for help, and I need to make sure I cover my own bases first. So I don't want to go back to that feeling of rejection. Yeah, so I think that you know, being the seven mean like taking care of everybody, you know, making sure everybody's okay, you know. Kind of the for me, that core memory was like, Yes, because I am taking care of myself, then I can take care of others. And so I just want to say that that's very lonely. That's a very lonely way to live. Nobody knows it. And I didn't think I didn't feel like that was loneliness. I didn't call it loneliness, I called it independence.

SPEAKER_00 30:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 30:05

But as I, you know, became a mom and you know, life became more complicated, I realized that's a very lonely place to be where I feel like what if what if what if I need help? I don't even know who to turn to. I don't even know how to ask. And I wouldn't want anybody to pity me. And I know now that that feeling is from that first imprint where asking for help was associated with pity or feeling embarrassed. But I had to relearn that, Amy. Um, and so this book talks about God rewriting our stories. So I went back to this memory, and so this book is showing me God saying, No, when you can open your heart and ask for help, that shows you believe you are worthy of loving, and so I have to take those little steps of knowing, you know. Some people are going to say, like, ooh, uh, no, thanks, Bonnie. Like, I only like you if you're providing for me. Okay. Like, uh, I don't like this part of you, Bonnie. And but then there are people I realized after I took the risk of that rejection, there are people that would love to help me. Yeah. You know, just like how you and I, we we get so happy if we feel like we can help someone.

SPEAKER_05 31:21

Well, guess what?

SPEAKER_03 31:23

There are actually people that will be happy to listen to us. You know, help doesn't necessarily mean, you know, drive over here, do my groceries or fill my laundry. The help could be, I am having such a bad day. Like, you know, I need to talk to you. Yes. You know, it could be words, just listening, or like, okay, I I I don't know what to choose, you know, between this situation or that. Like, can you just like talk it out with me? So that's an example of sweet like Jasmine. That life doesn't have to be perfect in order for it to be beautiful. Life doesn't have to be perfect or flawless in order for me to feel like life can be sweet. So I try to always try to fix things and make things work, and then I can feel like, oh phew, okay, it's it's a beautiful day now. It's a good day. Now I'm changed to God rewriting sweet like Jasmine. Like, no, Bonnie, actually, when things are falling apart, it can still be beautiful. But the way to be beautiful is you're gonna have to open up your heart and do something different and you know, challenge yourself to step out of your comfort zone. So this book goes through and explores what are the different ways women feel lonely. And so this one I shared with you the story is about like what are those vows we once made to ourselves. So I'm sure we would have, you know, we'd have a great conversation around well, what are some of the vows a little Annie made when she age or 10 or 12? So this, yeah, this book is gonna be able to help women share those things because we often go to church and we talk about uh uh what we can study about the Bible, about we'll we'll share our truths, and there is a time and place where that we have to reinforce each other with a truth, okay. But we need the soul part, we need the stories part. So this book is gonna be able to do that. So for instance, that that would be a question at the end of this uh this chapter. You know, I would say, like, okay, women, sisters, friends, what are some of the vows you made when you were little, whether it's high school or junior high? Okay, can you imagine all the stories that are gonna start flowing?

SPEAKER_00 33:33

Totally, totally, and all connected. I mean, this is where I wished that people were open enough to take an Enneagram test that started off with that question what's an inner vow that you made when you were younger? Because I promise you the theme would be congruent to that core fear, the core desire, all of those things, you know, as a seven again. You know, I will I will take care of myself and I will take care of everybody else. And I I long to be taken care of, but somehow in my life, something told me that I wasn't either worthy of being taken care of or um I wasn't taken care of.

SPEAKER_03 34:18

Yeah, and it also bleeds into who I am as a mom because you know these stories that I'm gonna share in Suite Like Jasmine. My children, I have two sons, Josh and Caleb. They're 15 and 13. They've never heard these stories because when I became a mom, I thought, you know, the best way to start fresh is to just erase the past and just like write a new story with my children. And I didn't want them to know these stories about my childhood, like the things that were painful for me because I felt I didn't want them to feel the sense of shame. Like, ooh, I have such a weird family. Like, that's my voice, right? And I want my children to have that thought in their head. But because I'm coming out with this book, I was like, wait a minute, my kids need to hear these stories before the rest of the world. So literally this April, after I finished the manuscript, I sat down and said, Boys, mom needs to share some stories with you. And I'm really nervous about it because I've never shared these with you. But now I feel you're old enough, you're teenagers. You know, teens read all kinds of books as part of their curriculum. Yeah. So I started reading, you know, a few chapters a night with them, and I was so nervous the first time. And um, I thought, gosh, are they gonna say, Mom, this is TMI, or just quiet, you know, too much information, mom, or just quietness, silence. That that's like my biggest fear is silence. Because that means rejection to me. Um, but you know what? My oldest son Josh said, Mom, I can't believe this happened to you. I'm so proud of you. You're gonna share this story. And my little son Caleb, he came over and he hugged me. He's like, Mom, it's like I'm there with you. It's you wrote it like it's a movie. I can I can feel how you feel. And my my my other son just came up. These are my teenage sons. They came over and they just hugged me. And wow, how much healing was that. And so incredible. Yeah, I never would have guessed. You know, the parts of me that I've hidden from my children are the very parts that make them feel close to me. And so I know it's it's really been wonderful because now it's like we have this deepened trust. I know when they have imperfections, they're gonna feel comfortable coming to me and sharing, you know, their hard stories. So I I just want to free the reader to share her stories. Every woman, oh my gosh, every woman has so many stories that are so courageous. And yet they have, you know, as women, we hide those. And so I want every woman to feel empowered to look back into their lives and mine the gold in their face stories and not be afraid to share those parts of us that are different because that's what's gonna make our children feel like, okay, my mom's an actual human being and not just the person that's you know only teaching and guiding and knows everything. I mean, that that is not the recipe for intimacy or honesty, or you know, the kind of relationship we crave with our children is friendship. In order to be friends, just like you and me, right, Amy, and before we started our podcast, we just shared our stories. And so that's why we're now friends. So I have I I wanted to share with the listeners, you know, I sometimes get pre-bonus gifts for for books pre-ordering, and bless those author souls. I know that they're beautiful and you know, felt like they're useful to them, but I I just really want to give something really special this time for Sweet Like Jobsman. I love it. Finding finding identity in a culture of loneliness. Okay, I'm doing a free workshop called Stories of Faith. Awesome. And there's a journal. We're starting it in September. It's kind of a pre-celebration warm-up so that we can share our stories. This book, Amy, is helping each woman. And if you're into book clubs, this is the one to pick because every chapter ends with sharing your story. So, you know that story I shared earlier about like my dad and the vow that I made. Okay, at the end of that chapter, it'll say, share, you know, whether in your journal or with the women in your group. What is a vow you made when you were a little girl? You know, so like that, it's it's you know, we can like share what we know about the Bible, which is the truth part, which is awesome, but we also need to share our stories. So the pre-order bonus comes with a journal, a workshop, and you know, you will have those videos to access at any time. It I'll help you get started to share your stories, and you can use that just to capture it, just to like, you know, return to gratefulness to see, like, you know what, God is with me. Second, you can share those stories with your children, you know, if they're young, you could save it for later or you know now, you know, if they're even teenagers, share it now. And it's easier to read your story to somebody or send it to them. Like, you know, that's so much easier. So um, I'm gonna guide all of us as women to share our stories. I'll encourage you. I'm a soul care guide as well, so I love this stuff.

SPEAKER_01 39:30

And then you also get the free audiobook. So you get a free audiobook.

SPEAKER_00 39:34

That's amazing. Come on, that's incredible. What? Like that's that's seriously, those are some of the best pre-order bonuses I've seen out there. And I mean, I think our friends listening right now were obviously we're listeners, so we're more inclined to audiobooks. So I I am thinking, and I happen to know that I just released a book in July. And some of the first question I got is, is this available in audio? And it's not yet. So I know our friends here, they're gonna really appreciate doing that. And you know, Bonnie, I want to I want to bring this one little piece up here before we go and uh because I I think this is really important to address. I I really believe in my heart and my vision of simply wholehearted is to bring a ton of diverse voices to the table. And this is why it's important to me to represent all the personality types, but to have different people explain their their unique perspective on that personality type. And Bonnie, for you, you come, obviously, you you've shared your story, your family heritage coming from Hong Kong. And so we're in a day and age where anti-Asian violence is happening and you know, specific things, events out there that are reminding us that not everyone feels like you and I, where we're all inclusive and love each other as ourselves, and everyone has a seat at the table and that we purposely support one another. And we're and and here's the deal. I don't want simply wholehearted to all of the same stuff. We have to represent what the world looks like, you know, and and what the what the kingdom of heaven is going to look like. And so I just want to start say for a minute on behalf of you, and then I'd love if whatever you want to add to it is that I think one of the best ways as Christians and as believers that we can help put an end to the violence and support our brothers and sisters in Christ is for someone like you who comes and is bringing a voice to the table that is distinctly different. And and we we buy and per purchase your books and we follow and we support and we champion you and we share the message because of all of who you are, because you're sharing this Christ's message and you bring a unique perspective to the table.

SPEAKER_03 41:59

Oh my gosh, you're gonna make me cry. It's taken me 10 years to publish this book, Amy, because at the beginning people said there's no market for Asian American stories. And I know for a fact in real life that's not true. We all love to know, yeah, that God works in many, many different cultures, all cultures because he created our different cultures. And he shows up in all different, crazy, different, weird stories, which we all have them. I mean, if we didn't, we'd all be carbon copies and cookie cutters, which we're not. Yeah. So, you know, I know that believers want to stop Asian hate, and the best way to do it is that we share our stories. Because when you share your stories, you realize we're not so different after all. Oh my gosh, I totally relate to this or that. So the way to combat um anti-Asian hate is to share stories. So I'm a storyteller. This is the way I'm doing it. If I share my story with you, you share your stories. Oh my gosh, right there, there's more love in the world. So um, those who want to help support, you know, having God show up in all cultures and to heal the division that our country is facing. Uh, I invite you to support me and to share this story. This is a this is a um tangible way that you can stop Asian hate now is to share stories that are different. And in sharing them, you read them, you share your stories right there. We've got a link, we've got a bond, and we realize we are all together in unity in Christ.

SPEAKER_00 43:31

Bonnie, what a beautiful way to conclude this conversation. I'm just so grateful for your time, for your insight, for your wisdom. I um I'm gonna be sure and I'm gonna link all the ways that you can follow Bonnie and you can order her new book. Pre-order it. Oh yes, get the pre-order benefits.

SPEAKER_02 43:50

Yes, go to sweetlikejasmine.com. Go to sweetlikejasmine.com.

SPEAKER_00 43:59

I love it, Bonnie. Thank you so much for being a part of this conversation. Just join us at my table. I love making it bigger and bigger, right? I said oven, like that's her thing. Like how big can her table gets.

SPEAKER_05 44:12

I love it.

SPEAKER_00 44:14

Wow. Well, I knew it was gonna love talking to Bonnie, but I had no idea it was going to be so rich. If you haven't yet discovered her writing on Instagram, I highly recommend you give her a follow and thank her for being a guest on this podcast. Clearly, you'll also want to pre-order her books, tweet like Jasmine, to get all the free goodies. Plus, make sure that you have it in hand come October. Next month we're gonna be finishing our summer in the Enneagram on the podcast. But I'm gonna finish this style with a huge virtual celebration called the Wholehearted Enneagram Summit. It is the first of its kind, and I am so excited for to share this amazing content with you, you guys. It's phenomenal. I can't say enough about it. I've invited over 20 faith-based Enneagram experts to share their expertise about marriage, career, motherhood, and spiritual growth. The sign of pages live so you can register today and you can share it with all your friends. It's gonna be good if you don't want to miss this one. You can find all the details, of course, in the show notes. And remember, friends, you are the mom your kids need. Continue to pursue perspective, purpose, and plan with a wholehearted life you desire.