The Five's Sacred Wisdom | Depth, Depletion & Trusting God with Deanna Sudom

Wholehearted Enneagram: A Year Through the Types | Type 5 | Episode 1 of 4

What does it look like to be the most prepared person in the room… and the most alone?

Amy opens Type Five month with her co-teacher and spiritual director Deanna Sudom, exploring a type that is profoundly misunderstood — often seen as cold or aloof when they are actually among the most perceptive, generous, and deeply feeling people you will ever know.

You'll hear about:

• The Five's core fear of being depleted, incapable, or incompetent — and how it shapes every relationship and decision
• Why Fives aren't emotionally unavailable… they're protecting something precious (and waking up every day feeling like they're already at 20%)
• The withdrawing stance and what it actually costs a Five and the people who love them
• How Fives experience God intellectually before they trust Him — and what shifts when they move from knowing about God to being known by Him
• The 18-inch gap between head and heart, and why filling it with more knowledge isn't the answer
• The gift of the Five's wisdom, depth, and singular capacity for focused presence, and why the world genuinely needs what they've been holding

Whether you're a Five yourself or you love one, this conversation is an invitation: you don't have to earn your place at the table by knowing enough. You already belong.

You have more to give than you know. And you don't have to disappear to be safe.

The Enneagram can name your patterns. It can't set you free from them. That's the difference between insight and transformation, and it's the whole focus of this summit.

Learn more, check out the speakers & get your free seat!

https://www.simplywholehearted.com/wholehearted-2026

Transcript

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SPEAKER_01 1:38

Um, this is one thing I love about my fives that are friends. They will fully be engaged with what you are saying, what you want to have. I have the most rich conversations with them. I think too, um, they just don't see parts of things, they really connect systems. They are very perceptive that way. They withdraw because they care deeply, and they're also protecting their inner resources. So their core fear would be that being depleted or incapable or incompetent. And so being caught without enough inner resources to meet what the world demands of them. One thing, though, I really see in a type five the capacity and ability they have to sit in silence and solitude. I've asked my five friends, teach me how to do that. The invitation, probably moving from knowing about God to being known by God. And we need you, type fives. We need you. Your vast knowledge and your steadiness and your humor. They're some of the funniest people I know. Insights, you're worthy of this space and this world, and we need you, and the world needs you.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

Welcome to the wholehearted Enneagram Podcast, the Enneagram for real life. Here is where you'll find conversations where faith meets story and strategy for lasting transformation. I'm your host, Amy Wicks, here to help you find wisdom and wholehearted rhythms for moments that matter most. Whether you're learning your type or deepening your spiritual formation, these conversations will remind you that the Enneagram shines a light, but Christ is the transformation. Deanna, we have made it to the Enneagram five months. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

It's amazing that we've made it this far. Where are you recording from today?

SPEAKER_00 4:01

Yeah, well, I'm trying a new podcast space in this place that we've now lived in. Not quite six months, but I'm still finding all the rhythms. You may have noticed, and any friend who listens regularly, that there was definitely a sound shift since I've been recording in our new house. And I haven't found that sweet spot until I started recording the audiobook. And I was really paying attention because I wasn't loving the sound quality, but I didn't know that if I could do anything about it. But the audiobook, I had to. Instead of renting a space, I found a space in my house that has a little bit better of sound and I got a new microphone system thing. So we'll see. This is the first one that we're doing for the podcast. We'll see how it goes. I kind of like it. It's very makeshift, very bootstrapped. So I won't be taking a picture of my studio anytime soon. But here I am. I'm comfortable. I'm sitting down. Anyway, yeah, yeah. Thanks for asking. I I what I really loved, I want to say at the beginning here of the Enneagram 5 series is that the six months took on a special quality in that I think there's a lot of misnomers about sixes stereotypes and just broad statements made about a six. And I heard a lot of great feedback of people. Thank you so much, or this was articulated about the difference of, or thank you for helping paint a broader picture than we're just scaredy cats afraid in the corner, whimpering somewhere. And I I have that same anticipation about the Enneagram five month because I think a lot of people don't know fives. And I hear often, do you know a five? Or I don't know if I know any fives. Tell me more. What does that really look like? And I think there's a lot of reasons for that, some of which we might touch on today. But I am excited to have you share not only from a spiritual direction and a coach standpoint, but you have a strong five-wing. So I think there's a lot of insight that could be shared today.

SPEAKER_01 6:09

I hope so. Yes. I know I love this type actually, and I'm really drawn to them. So I do know a lot of fives. And actually, this is my conjecture, but I think both of my son-in-laws are fives. So there's lots of experience around that from different men and women's perspectives. Yes, there is a lot, but I I pull to my five for sure a lot. And we will discover more of that today, I think.

SPEAKER_00 6:39

I know we will. And I too have that line. The my line of growth for the seven is the five. And so I do like latch on and purposely look for fives out there in the world who have wisdom or just to learn from their way of being. That sometimes feels very opposite of me. But I too, my brother-in-law, my father-in-law, my brother, who thinks he's an eight, I believe, is actually a five. Just gonna say that publicly. That's fine. He doesn't listen. And my husband in his tri-type, his second type would be a five, very much experience that. But then I've had a lot of five clients this year. And some that I've worked with will be heard on the podcast this month, but they're just amazing, wise, slower but deeper people that I really respect and appreciate. So anyway, thanks for being here again so we could talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 7:37

My pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

Okay. I kind of hinted at some of the things that come to my mind or in my experience of the five, but for you, we want to give airtime to what the Enneagram Five actually is. So give us some words, some descriptions, or you know, what people embody when you've communicated or befriended a five.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

I think I would say they have an extraordinary capacity for depth in many ways. Not just with their knowledge, which is vast. I always think if I need to know something, I think I need to find a five because they have that resource and their memory is fantastic to pull that out, you know. I think that's a gift for sure. And also because they are like they have that depth capacity, they give you their full attention. Um, this is one thing I love about my fives that are friends, they will fully be engaged with what you are saying, what you want to have. I have the most rich conversations with them. I think too, um, they just don't see parts of things, they really connect systems, they are very perceptive that way. And talking about that, they notice what's happening in the room before anybody can even say what it was or what it is. So I think those are some of the, and really when they do learn that they're not going to be depleted, they are so generous with the knowledge that they do have for sure.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

Yeah, I experience that as well. Especially if it's a topic they have explored and enjoy and brings them some delight to share in for sure.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

Yes, for sure. Yes, and very, very loyal. They're very loyal people. I um and then when their loyalty has reached that level of trust, there's a depth to that. That how could I describe it? They're just really deeply supportive. I see, I see I have a friend who's a type five who's very deeply supportive of this other friend of ours who's a single mom, and she specifically helps her in an area that she has trouble with, and she will fiercely protect that over her. It's really beautiful, actually.

SPEAKER_00 10:07

Yeah. Okay, so that is an interesting thing to note because one of the character traits or patterns of communication for the five is the withdrawing pattern. When we started off with the Enneagram nine months, the nine is in the withdrawing stance, the five is in the four, and four will be next month. So you have those three. We haven't talked a lot about withdrawing, it's been too assertive so far and dutiful. So, how is that thread play out for the five specifically? And maybe even for you when you experience your five-wing engaging or really acting more active.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

Yes, I would say, first of all, they don't withdraw because they don't care. They um they withdraw because they care deeply, and they're also protecting their inner resources. So I always say, from a personal example, my tritype is a four, five, eight. And so my pattern of communication is I will withdraw, and then I will withdraw even more. And this is when I would resource and when I would study, and when I would just ponder what has happened or what kind of communication, and then when I do know, I come out like an eight. I'm like, okay, let's go.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

Watch out. Dan is dropping truth bombs or getting stuff done.

SPEAKER_01 11:35

And so, and that can happen in a matter of three minutes, right? It's not always necessarily a process of I'm gonna withdraw for a couple days, it just is the process of communicating with people often. So I think possibly they can be perceived as being cold because their emotions don't show up first often. And so in that withdrawing space, they maybe have this sense of standoffishness, if I could say that right. And really, it isn't if you know the heart of a five, you know that that's not the stance that they're trying to create. So I would say that in that they're deeply misread, you know. The ones the types that we've done already are more expressive types, they would not be seeming distant or withholding of things. Yeah. But honestly, I think I I just said this to my friend before, I'm sure maybe I did a long time ago. I've known her for a while, but I said, uh, five wakes up like they have a 20% battery capacity, and then they spend the rest of the day trying to conserve that because they feel like this catastrophic depletion is going to happen. And so I think that's part of the withdrawn part is just trying to always protect that. They're not just protecting themselves from people or things, but their self-sufficiency and just the ability to be able to, especially in social interactions, it's quite draining for them. And so they protect their time. I think too in emotional expectations is a huge drainer for a five in and when they're in the withdrawn space already. It is difficult for them to navigate that sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 13:27

Yeah. Or even if this situation is emotional for them, it feels emotional. It may not be circumstantially emotional, but it it does strike them as a challenge. And so that can tend to look like retreat to gather, muster to the energy, reload, if you will. And sometimes that retreating can be unhealthy. We'll definitely talk about moments like that. But a lot of times the withdrawing is retreating to get what they're afraid they won't have in moving forward and engaging. And then that can feel discombobulating for those who love them or who experience maybe where that retreating feels a little bit out of the blue or maybe um jarring because of the situation or the frequency. So, you know, that's that and that plays into some of the things that we've made sure that you and I have shared for each type. And that is to give airtime to core fears and desires. Cause at the end of the day, someone might look like a five, but if these desires and fears aren't true to them, then it's best to be continuing to look around the wheel to see what others. So, what does that look like for a five? What are they actually afraid of when what their actions are is research and retreating, gathering more information and knowledge? What's really behind all of that?

SPEAKER_01 14:54

So their core fear would be that being depleted or incapable or incompetent. And so being caught without enough inner resources to meet what the world demands of them. So I think, you know, the question underneath is always, do I have enough to give or will this leave me empty? It's always this consideration, uh, the fear of being overwhelmed or intruded upon or drained by people who need more than they think they can offer. I think probably they have a lot more resource than they believe sometimes. Yeah. Also being seen as ignorant or inadequate probably has the capacity to take a five out sometimes, thinking that someone thinks they're incompetent, inadequate, any of those things, not knowing enough, not being enough, all of that I think pours into the fear.

SPEAKER_00 15:53

Yeah. Yeah. I think the fear there for the five propels them to well, we've already talked about the retreating, but to go gather more information. And I would say similar because the we've talked about the five being in the withdrawn stance. The five is also in the head triad, which is shared with the seven and the six. And so each of the head triad, it has a desire for security and safety. And how the five goes about that looks different. Cause I would go about that too from our experiences and opportunities and you know, even like this expansiveness, whereas the five goes towards retreating, holding in, getting smaller information, they're going within and it's still anxiety driving them, but it looks, it's a different armor, if you will, or a different maladaptive and coping mechanism than the six or the seven would. So I think it's an interesting way to understand that's behind the scenes and playing into it. And then how you, if you're a a seven or a six, how that's relatable, but also how it's different. But then understanding your fives of like, oh, this is where this is coming from. And I can understand that a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

Yes. I would add just a little bit to that when my Amazon bill gets really high.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

True stories. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 17:26

Yeah, my husband goes, oh, another book's coming from Amazon.

SPEAKER_00 17:32

Yes, dude. Yeah, you know, this is I will just give a brief nod to in my mastermind. Recently, we were chatting about the desire to keep learning. And there's different motivations for it because it was different types in the room. And I brought up the six working genius framework, which I've alluded to here before. I use it with teams. I've been certified and trained in it for years and been working, you know, I don't like do podcasts on it typically, but there's something to understand for the five. That wonder element for them tends to be a genius consistently and a place that brings joy. And there's nothing wrong with that. That's a gift. It's just knowing when to lean in and live into that curious space and the insatiable appetite for learning and knowledge and balancing that out with the doing, which doing repression is real for the 954 in particular, specifically. So in that, there's room for growth and understanding when and where in the right timing and to be able to laugh at it, like you said, well, Wade knows you're in your learning space, you're five weeks going. But there's also a right time and place to sign up for the program to learn, to listen to the podcast, to be reading the book. But as long as it's being paired in a balance and a way that's advantageous to growth and to what it is that the Lord is calling you to do to keep moving forward and other things too. I know a lot we could talk a lot about that because yeah. And probably is going to come up in a few conversations this month. But in this sense of spiritual direction for the five, how have you seen in your work that a five experiences God differently? And I'd love to spend a little time here because I think there's something very, very important here to uncover and just bring to the light in how a five very uniquely engages with faith, even with the word of God and in relationship with their Heavenly Father.

SPEAKER_01 19:47

Yes, that's great. Um, one thing because they are in the head triad, they want to know about their faith, they want to learn about it, they want to figure it out intellectually before they would ever feel it, experience it, that kind of thing. They need to understand it before they trust him. And so that that is a bit of a journey, I think. And then in the piece of learning, the theology part of spirituality is not just academic for five, but it's like this the building, the scaffolding that makes God feel safe enough to approach for them. They can step on these steps because they've learned and they understand and they know if they grew up in a faith community that valued certainty and answers, they may have thrived or they may have felt frustrated by it when the answers didn't hold up to what seemed sufficient for them. Yeah. Um I think too that five can love God and still keep him at arm's length, which is just the way that they live with people sometimes too, you know. It's just like I I really love you, but I just need you to be over here for a little bit right now. And so engaging God while protecting their interior space, that God might actually ask something of them. This one really, when I recognized this, really struck me as well in that piece of where it's difficult for me to go and sit in silence and solitude because I think I had this false belief that he was just gonna ask something of me that there was no way that I could do. And um interesting. And now, and now the more that I know him, the more that I know he would give me what I need to do, what he's calling of me. But I think that was this misplaced fear before. And so that's one thing, though, I really see in a type five, the capacity and ability they have to sit in silence and solitude. I have asked my five friends, teach me how to do that. Yeah, because it's really fascinating, and just their ability to sit with the Lord in that and be quiet and just listen. And I really I am in awe of that ability in them for sure. The invitation, probably moving from knowing about God to being known by God, and I've seen this shift here where when they are able to encounter him in all of them, instead of just their intellect, then they are locked down in their faith. They're almost unshakable. I mean, there will be seasons, you know, we're all human, and there'll be seasons when it will be difficult when there will be doubt, where there will be wondering. But I think when they surrender to that, he encounters their heart even more, and then more of them's engaged in their faith that way.

SPEAKER_00 22:59

Yeah. I have consistently seen for fives that 18-inch gap from head to heart is a big one, and the gap is real. And the fives intuition is to fill it with knowledge, but faith doesn't come from more knowledge, it comes from lived experience, it comes from replacing hope in the unseen. And so that is a nuance that I think at least I've seen fives in their struggle of faith and in their process of spiritual formation. That is a really unique gap. to cross over. And in that, I think I would have some, I would have one piece of advice. I hope it would be helpful, but I think you would have some more, even some scripture to outline for us. But that is just because you don't have the same lived experience doesn't mean you're not having experiences or encounters with God. I think a five tends to compare how they experience God with others and they discount what has been the experience. And that has shaken their faith or cause them to question, which I don't think questioning is bad. I think five brings a natural skepticism and a questioning and a curiosity that does ask to prove it at some level. But I've seen fives make the mistake of going, this is how they've experienced it and I haven't. So therefore my like something must be wrong or something must be wrong with me. And that has often gotten them in what I see as a stuck place in their faith or where they're just that that feels there feels like a regression instead of a progression.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

That's really great. Yes I agree with that. I have a friend who says to me often she says well Deanna has a direct line to the Lord and I and almost every time I go so do you yes we all do and so do you but yours might look differently or so do you but let's see what that seems like to you or how it appears to you or how it will show up for you. And uh so it just it makes me laugh but it also makes me a little bit sad because I'm like you do too.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

You do too. Yeah. Absolutely what does courage look like for a five when they're feeling stuck whether it's faith in relationships or just in life because sometimes that even we talked about the head heart gap 18 inches but a five has a four wing and not only in the diagram but also in teaching traditionally there is this empty spot and it is said that a five and a four we'll talk more about that next month that can fall into that gap but it's almost this empty abyss but it often denotes depression and uncertainty but which certainty is really important for a five.

SPEAKER_01 26:11

So help our friend who's like oh yeah that's me now what what does courage require I think it requires not hoarding their time energy knowledge space out of a fear of running out I think it means um endless pre-preparation as a substitution for participation like I'll engage once I know enough. I think the biggest question they could ask here is what will knowing enough look like and in that space that could unlock the possibility that they do know enough to proceed that they can share what they know that would be courageous. It would be you know observation as a substitute for presence they're often known as the observer. So they will stand back and just observe and that fills their cup a lot. So for them to be able to step in and engage would require courage but it would also just be a step towards watching not just watching but actually engaging in what's happening around them. And I think too I have a friend actually who just discovered somatic movement and it has been a game changer for her to move her out of her head and into her body and then essentially into her feelings. And so this I think is a great way for a type five to be courageous to just start moving their body which seems so maybe silly to some but it's really it's real it's really important. It is real.

SPEAKER_00 27:54

Yeah and I think that's the a lot of times that nine five four answer in that doing repression inertia momentum is a challenge to tap into but that movement it can be gentle we're not talking go run a marathon it's physically moving your body that gets some of the other instinctual parts of us connected and going forward as we need to so I know you're really big on the word of God and in for some of the other types you've given us some scripture anchors I'd love to hear what encouragement you would offer is drawing some strength from the word of God that would help some of that head heart connection and even put it in some physical language that helps a five embody the truth of their faith and trust in the Lord.

SPEAKER_01 28:49

Actually a couple of these stood out to me because I just wanted to read from what Psalm 1391 to five it says you have searched me Lord and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise you perceive my thoughts from afar you discern my going out and my lying down you are familiar with all my ways before a word is on my tongue you Lord know it completely you hand me in behind and before and you lay your hand upon me. I love this for five that it reminds them how thoroughly known they are by God and that he is a God that doesn't deplete and that he it doesn't create depletion by him knowing them in this way. Whereas sometimes human interaction interaction might do that with them. So I love that verse. I love also Matthew 1413 that says when Jesus heard what had happened he withdrew by boat privately to a solitary place. Hearing this the crowds followed him on foot from the towns and so I think that knowing that Christ withdrew as well when he needed to really honors that position in the type five and also it speaks to I almost didn't read the second part of that verse but I but then I felt like the Lord said this speaks to the fact that the following of people that they have great regard for them and and what they have to offer and that we usually don't give up on them. Like we will continue and just say and see and know the goodness of them and what they do have to offer as friends, as people with knowledge or without knowledge just their presence is really beautiful. So I think that verse speaks to that a lot.

SPEAKER_00 30:41

Oh yeah that was so good. Okay we did talk a little bit or you shared some of the practice solitude and silence being some key for the head types and I think this is always important to that's why I give this preface is like the head types the five six seven silence is the upstream practice it is the counteraction to the head noise and it looks a little bit different for the five the six the seven for the five in particular is engaging in the silence. And so there's a nuance there because fives would quickly go I'm good with silence. What are you talking about? Like that's my jam but choosing to engage not retreat in it in itself in the silence itself but paying attention to the silence and paying attention to what the Lord wants to say. So his voice rises to the surface and is above all knowledge that we can attain. So it's his wisdom his insight so that's an important piece I wanted to expand on for a minute but I know there's a lot of fives who are exhausted from managing their energy economy and the people who are depleting them not out of malintent, but it's just life and it's their world so how would you encourage a five to or what would you continue to encourage them besides just the moving and the body practice somatic what are some other things that a five could do as they're looking to recharge and find a way through when they're on the verge of depletion that's really good.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

I loved how you said that I would say this is one I think is to share things early not just wait until they think that they have all that they need to know and all the ducks in a row and all the pieces together. I think um when it's trusted people share before it's perfectly formed for them. I think this will end up giving a space to not feel so depleted even though they're still giving I think probably one conversation practice would be I encourage even just to reach out to a friend once a week before the friend reaches out to them. Oh that's good. Tough yeah good yeah and I think too just even choosing a person that you would sit five minutes longer with than is virtually or physically comfortable I guess would be the word for that and then just notice what happens pay attention to it don't just just sit there longer enduring it and gritting your teeth but pay attention to is this actually drawing things out of me or is it refueling me? I think there's yeah I think that would be a good one. Also just to give away their knowledge like find a one piece of knowledge they could give someone one active presence and then also paying attention in that space if that is something that is taking away from where they're at yeah I don't think yeah this is naming what their interior abundance is if they can sit I have seen this happen when I've sat with the five and I allow them space to just share what it is that they're good at that they know that they could share it really fuels them and things that they have maybe accumulated in them that they actually what do you actually have to give I don't think they pay attention to what they have to give sometimes that it's just this is just the way of living of right getting resources of having knowledge of gathering it and and they don't pay attention to that is actually something that this is who they are and what they have to offer people.

SPEAKER_00 35:07

Yeah a valuable contribution to the rest of us just as if for me understanding the joy that sometimes is innate I take for granted and going oh that's actually a reflection of God that is needed in the body of Christ and to others similarly there's been a recent move for churches in particular to partner with local schools for literacy programs. And I I think about opportunities that are very simple but for a lot of fives that I know there would be joy in just sitting with the child and allowing them to read. They're not teaching because they're not the teacher you don't have to be but think about what that would, you know, I think about my fives and how that would bring them joy and what a gift that would be where it might be easier for that person up for a five than say the seven or eight to sit in there and do it and what a gift that would be. So there's a lot of this okay there's a lot more to be said about the five as with each episode that you and I do we to scratch the surface and thankfully we get the whole month to unpack it. And even then there's more to be said. But for now what would you love our friend listening to walk away with specifically and and to hold about understanding a five or understanding themselves?

SPEAKER_01 36:31

Well I want to go back just a little bit and say that the gift of God that they've been given is wisdom and to share that with others. So I would say press into the Lord in the space of depletion to be reminded that he is never depleted and we need you type fives we need you your vast knowledge and your steadiness and your humor they're some of the funniest people I know insights you're worthy of this space and this world and we need you and the world needs you I would say you're not what you know but you are a deeply loved child of God and nobody can take that away from you.

SPEAKER_00 37:13

Yes and amen. Deanna thank you so much this is beautiful as always and I feel like it is the perfect kickoff and we're going to be able to hear from a five wholehearted client who I've been asking for years to share and she's finally willing and so I'm so excited to share that conversation next week and a wholehearted coach who's a five so anyway can't wait. All right well Deanna thank you so much as always it's a joy and a pleasure and an honor thank you thank you thanks so much for joining me for the wholehearted Enneagram podcast if this conversation spoke to you please share it with a friend you can also visit simply wholehearted.com to take the free Enneagram quiz and also get your personalized podcast playlist specific for your Enneagram type and remember friend your starting point doesn't have to be your stuck point